Odds that this has anything to do with the government falling apart?
ATC are fed employees, this happened at the worst-named airport in DC ....
this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2025
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My friend is an ATC and I saw him last week. From my conversations with him they haven't been hit with Trump shenanigans...yet
Possible but probably not. ATC have been understaffed and overworked for years and this is the inevitable result.
Combine that with a military that has historically always done whatever the fuck it... err, support the troops and thank you for your service. Can I have my salmon tossed under the broiler please?
But yeah. This is less a consequence of trump and more a consequence of our fundamentally broken culture and government that predates him.
Literally impossible for this to result in that crash
I know we want to associate everything bad with the new admin but this was just regular old american calpitalist incompetence
They even just removed it from their website.
We then find out the real reason for the crash is empty seats https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/30/business/air-traffic-control-staffing-plane-crash.html
How many air traffic controllers recieved Elon's buyout email?
Ya, it's obviously DEI like Trump is saying.
Saying these edgy things to make people upset so you get little squirts of dopamine is a pathetic addiction to let control your time.
Sorry, didn't realize it was an edgy comment.
You were talking about things that were impossible to have caused the crash and (my inference) being quick to judge.
Because of that, I thought it was funny that Trump immediately blamed DEI before any sort of investigation had been done.
Maybe I misinterpreted your comment.
I'mma let you in on a secret:
The CEO doesn't do shit. ANYWHERE.
This is going to have very big ramifications even medium term. But the work culture and lack of personnel were already a major problem long before... last week. At most, trump accelerated this.
Now, the horrific response to this is all fuckface.
As an aside: it is REALLY obnoxious to post two giant images as a reply.
Alternative headline:
U.S. Army kills Russian elites Evia Shova and Andim Naov with Black Hawk helicopter — Trump reduces security
This is a failure of communication. Why wasn't air traffic control made awhere of the military aircraft? This was a 100% avoidable incident. People need to be put on trial for incompetence, negligence, I bet their is a protocol to follow to avoid such incidents, I bet it wasn't followed under Trump's america. Tragic to the magnitude of maximum. This was 100% avoidable.
Read the article. The person you want to put on trial is dead. And all of trumps "changes" have hardly taken effect yet. Unless the helo piolot was a transgender pilot that was intentionally committing suicide, this one isn't on trump. But don't worry, there will be no shortage of things to blame on trump for at least the next decade.
your kidding me right? what did musk do to the FAA chairman? pushed him out and made him resign because he was giving spacex fines. on January 20th he resigned. the trump administration replaced him with a yes man who ended up being an incompetent person unable to avoid this disaster this was 100% avoidable.
RIP to all on those flights.
VASAviation has the raw ATC audio. If you're not used to listening to ATC, read the comments for interpretation. Lots of experienced folk there.
In general, the aviation industry doesn't assign individual "fault" the way many do. It's taken as a collective responsibility. It seems at this stage that there's a lot of responsibility on the helo pilot, but there's also some communication ambiguity. Let's let the pros do their work and not jump to conclusions.
they were aware and made several attempts. the failure is with the military ignoring the tower.
ATC had contact with the helicopter. They advised it of the regional jet and asked them to confirm they could see it. The helicopter replied that they had it in sight and asked for permission to maintain visual separation, which was granted, and they were advised to fly behind it. Essentially that means the helicopter advised they could see it, and would ensure they avoided it. About 5 seconds later they flew into it.
Before anyone says that it was crazy for the aircraft to just be told to avoid the other one, that is absolutely normal ATC operation, for aircraft in relatively close proximity to be told to be aware of each other and to maintain visual separation. If there was a failing, or room for improvement here, it was that ATC didn't tell the regional jet about the helicopter (they were on two different frequencies - quite normal for helicopters to be on a different one)
In my keyboard-expert opinion, the pilot of the helicopter identified something he thought was the regional jet and moved to avoid it, and the angles that the two aircraft were approaching each other from would have made it very difficult for either of them to see each other, especially at night.
Knowing a lot of families are going to be affected by this, this a tragedy no matter who or what is to blame. This is scary as hell all things considered, but we (or at least I) have to remember that a vast majority of investigations following crashes like this implicate a series of tiny but compounding errors. Regardless, it will still take time to figure out.
My speculation based on the video that could point to human error: It appears the aircraft were possibly closing in on each other somewhat perpendicularly for an extended amount of time. With their relative speeds/distances to the crash point, the aircraft may have appeared as remaining at the same point in each other's respective windows, with nighttime glare and light pollution effects making scale and distance hard to judge.
However, just from a momentum and maneuverability standpoint, the aircraft with the "right of way" here was almost certainly the jet on course for landing, and it would have been the helicopter's responsibility to establish and maintain visuals.
But who knows at this point. All I know is I'm tired of tragedy in every form.
I mean, ATC would also normally be keeping an eye on traffic? Either one if the aircraft ignored ATC, or they weren't warned.
According to commenters on reddit who listened to the ATC recordings: ATC asked the blackhawk to confirm visual of the passenger aircraft. When the blackhawk confirmed ATC told them to wait and then manoeuvre behind the passenger aircraft.
The military aircraft was therefore responsible for maintaining a visual separation which clearly they failed to do. Possibly they were looking at the wrong aircraft. Therefore it seems likely ATC wasn't responsible.
Obvs this all based on idiots on reddit claiming to have expertise so trust it as much as you would ChatGPT.
It’s in the article too. I don’t know if that’s a later addition but it’s there. Blackhawk pilot was told to see the incoming jet and pass behind. It didn’t.
At the surface, clear human error but it’s never that simple. Was communication missed or misunderstood? Was there another jet that looked to be where they expected it? At that altitude did things get lost in the clutter and ground lights? Was the jet really where it was supposed to be? While responsibility was passed to the pilot and the aircraft was too low for radar to be clear, why didn’t the tower scream?
It’s in the article too. I don’t know if that’s a later addition but it’s there.
It really would not surprise me if it were an edit and the journalists' source was the reddit thread
Do Black Hawks come with TCAS?
I just find it so unbelievable, not in a conspiratorial way, that such a thing could happen with all the safe guards in place.
Watching the video, it's also very weird the helicopter didn't seem to try and avoid the collision at all.
So I look into it and TCAS seems to be available in an upgrade package.
From information on flightradar24's article, the collision happened at around 300-400 ft. Those altitudes are too low for TCAS to issue alerts. The Black Hawk had a transponder broadcasting with mode S, so it would be visible to TCAS and the tower, but it was not broadcasting ADS-B, which would let you see it on most flight tracking websites.
The jet would have received an audible TCAS alert if this happened at a higher altitude.
Not only is it too low for things to work effectively but now you have city lights to contend with. It’s all too possibly the helicopter lost sight of the jet amidst all the lights.
There must have been a reason why the jet was told to switch runways. Was there another jet that could have been confused for that one? At night it’s tough to see distances and types of jet, so it’s possible the helicopter was looking at the wrong jet.
The jet was told to switch runways. They adjusted but were they where they were supposed to be? Airports have a complex layout of traffic patterns and controlled airspace. When it works well, traffic is nicely separated and predictable, but when everything changes it’s easy to not be where you’re supposed to be
TCAS is a transponder based system. Warnings are suppressed at low altitude by design, and city lights do not interfere with it.
Runways get changed all the time for many reasons. Every runway at washington national is in a different direction, it would be a different approach entirely and not a last minute change. There is no evidence that the plane flew the approach wrong. There is ADS-B data for the full flight. Anyone can check the plane's actual flighpath.
Pilots can refuse ATC orders that are unsafe. The approach they were originally planning would have crossed the river and had the same risk of traffic.
The helicopter pilot seeing the wrong plane is a likely explanation. There were other planes in the area. The controller warned of the traffic. The pilot confirmed having the plane in sight.
TCAS is … suppressed at low altitude by design,
Yep so that may not have helped
and city lights do not interfere with it.
But they do interfere with what you can see, and they were told to see and avoid
Every runway at washington national is in a different direction, it would be a different approach entirely and not a last minute change
Jets head toward their expected pattern from quite a few miles out. Tower changed their runway, so they needed to adjust. You’re right that there’s no indication it was last minute, but it was a change from their plan and change brings risk
The helicopter pilot seeing the wrong plane is a likely explanation. There were other planes in the area. The controller warned of the traffic. The pilot confirmed having the plane in sight.
Distance and heading can be difficult to judge, especially in the clutter at low altitude. Maybe they saw a different plane. Maybe they saw a parking lot light
The helicopter was flying at 300-400 feet. The buildings to the southeast are shorter than that. Those areas are 3-4 story sparse developments not highrises. The plane was above and descending. It would be seen against the night sky. There would be no buildings near where the helicopter would be looking for the plane.
Landing approaches are started from specific navaids. This plane was not off course because it was given a different arrival route than expected.
The airspace around DC is some of the most restricted in the world. Routes into the national airport are very tight with little allowance for error. Most of the routes come in over the river to avoid overflying government buildings, and the involved plane had a sharp left final over the river. The plane may have turned when the helicopter wasn't expecting it.
This is all speculation. Investigations into things like this are thorough. It is far to early to assign blame to anyone involved.
Navy variants of the Blackhawk do not have TCAS. I can only assume the army is similarly lacking that function.
I always assumed military aircraft didn't have TCAS or any other such technology that could give away the position of the aircraft. But thinking about it, why not? They do have transporders, they just have an off switch for them.
So I don't know. Maybe they don't have TCAS, maybe they forgot to turn it on. Either way, TCAS probably wouldn't work at low altitude during a landing.
We will probably have to wait for the accident report.
Too low for TCAS probably
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