this post was submitted on 20 May 2025

807 points (93.4% liked)

Memes

50417 readers

736 users here now

Rules:

Be civil and nice.
Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.

founded 6 years ago

MODERATORS

[email protected]

807

Have some civility. (lemmy.ml)

submitted 4 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

405 comments fedilink hide all child comments

(not OC)

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Yeah apparently there was something going on where USSR and Jews had an amicable relationship because of the history of Jewish people always existing in Russia, and them saving them from nazi Germany

[–] [email protected] -3 points 2 days ago

Did you get that in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Pretty sure Russia was Pogrom king and they wanted to get rid of the Jews too.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Didn't German Jews support Germany in WWI as they saw it as less antisemitic than Russia?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

So my history on Eastern Europe is quite lacking and this might be completely wrong but from what I recall Russia conquered a few countries like Poland and Ukraine and suddenly they had Jews living in Russian territory. Then Russia started doing Pogroms (The word Pogrom was invented in Russia). Knowing that, I would assume that German Jews at that time would not be very warm to Russian conquest but I really don't have enough historical knowledge on the subject.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Yes, would you be interested in starting a separate thread for further discussion? I'd also like to clear up my fuzziness. As a US-ian educated before education was quite as bad as it is now, I wouldn't have known about Herzl's attitudes that influenced his work, nor the Balfour agreement, had it not come up for an online discussion that came up with regard to Israel and Palestine in the late nineties or early aughts.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

I feel like if we started a thread discussing this it would be like two AI's hallucinating against eachother. I'm also not very interested in Herzls backstory, for the simple reason that he saw the Palestinians the same way (or even worse) as the Europeans treated the Jews.

Herzl himself also was a very rich dude from a rich family and he certainly didn't face any of the suffering or antisemtism which other Jews faced at the time.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago

I should be doing any number of things else, but this topic is bothering me. From what I've found on a quick search, pograms seemed stubbornly persistent, despite the revolutionary stance against, and discouragement of racist sentiment. I'll post links, and if there are refutations, look at them in due course.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire

https://jacobin.com/2017/06/russian-revolution-antisemitism-pogroms-reactionary-workers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms_during_the_Russian_Civil_War

And from a Zionist perspective,

https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-before-the-holocaust-pogroms-killed-100000-jews-then-were-forgotten/

I've merely quickly skimmed these myself, but post here to return to read later, and for your perusal, at your leisure.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

I feel like if we started a thread discussing this it would be like two AI's hallucinating against eachother.

I certainly can understand that, while also wanting to get to the bottom of this! I'll probably start a new thread about it, but not right now.

Regarding his back story, I find it immensely interesting in that he was racist all around.

Herzl himself also was a very rich dude from a rich family and he certainly didn't face any of the suffering or antisemtism which other Jews faced at the time.

Oh wow! You writing that struck like lightning! Maybe his racism against Jews and Palestinians boils down to classism.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

but I really don’t have enough historical knowledge on the subject.

Me neither. 😁

But yeah, that's kind of my take on it too. Thanks for your reply. 🙂

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Afaict, it's because Herzl was an antisemetic Jew. He considered himself one of the good ones and Balfour made relocation more expedient. This isn't blaming the Jews suffering under the Reich for flight rather than flight. They found themselves in an impossible situation, otherwise, afaict.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Apparently Herzl died 10 years before WWI.

FWIW:

wp:History of the Jews in Germany#World War I

A higher percentage of German Jews fought in World War I than of any other ethnic, religious or political minority in Germany; around 12,000 died in the fighting.[41][42]

Many German Jews supported the war out of patriotism; like many Germans, they viewed Germany's actions as defensive in nature and even left-liberal Jews believed Germany was responding to the actions of other countries, particularly Russia. For many Jews it was never a question as to whether or not they would stand behind Germany, it was simply a given that they would. The fact that the enemy was Russia also gave an additional reason for German Jews to support the war; Tsarist Russia was regarded as the oppressor in the eyes of German Jews for its pogroms and for many German Jews, the war against Russia would become a sort of holy war. While there was partially a desire for vengeance, for many Jews ensuring Russia's Jewish population was saved from a life of servitude was equally important – one German-Jewish publication stated "We are fighting to protect our holy fatherland, to rescue European culture and to liberate our brothers in the east."[43][44] War fervour was as common amongst Jewish communities as it was amongst ethnic Germans ones. The main Jewish organisation in Germany, the Central Association of German Citizens of the Jewish Faith, declared unconditional support for the war and when 5 August was declared by the Kaiser to be a day of patriotic prayer, synagogues across Germany surged with visitors and filled with patriotic prayers and nationalistic speeches.[45]

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl

Theodor Herzl[a] (2 May 1860 – 3 July 1904)[3] was an Austro-Hungarian Jewish journalist and lawyer who was the father of modern political Zionism. Herzl formed the Zionist Organization and promoted Jewish immigration to Palestine in an effort to form a Jewish state. Due to his Zionist work, he is known in Hebrew as Chozeh HaMedinah (חוֹזֵה הַמְדִינָה), lit. 'Visionary of the State'.[4][5] He is specifically mentioned in the Israeli Declaration of Independence and is officially referred to as "the spiritual father of the Jewish State".[6]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzl's_Mauschel_and_Zionist_antisemitism

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

Yep.

his Wikiquote page:

wq:Theodor Herzl

Were I to sum up the Basel Congress in a word — which I shall guard against pronouncing publicly — it would be this: At Basel, I founded the Jewish State. If I said this out loud today, I would be answered by universal laughter. Perhaps in five years, certainly in fifty, everyone will know it.

Herzl Diary entry (3 September 1897), a few days after the First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland, as quoted in 'Nonstate Nations in International Politics: Comparative System Analyses (1977) by Judy S. Bertelsen, p. 37; 50 years after writing this in his diary, the state of Israel was established.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago

I feel it would be helpful to me to have a conversation regarding this, at some point, at least clear up some of my own confusion, but probably not itt.