this post was submitted on 03 Oct 2024
484 points (97.8% liked)
Fediverse
28713 readers
548 users here now
A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).
If you wanted to get help with moderating your own community then head over to [email protected]!
Rules
- Posts must be on topic.
- Be respectful of others.
- Cite the sources used for graphs and other statistics.
- Follow the general Lemmy.world rules.
Learn more at these websites: Join The Fediverse Wiki, Fediverse.info, Wikipedia Page, The Federation Info (Stats), FediDB (Stats), Sub Rehab (Reddit Migration), Search Lemmy
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
If there was a Reddit/Lemmy style website (where people create communities for various subjects but it's all available from the same website using the same credentials) with forum style discussions I would be outta here in a moment.
Ongoing discussions with bumps are so much better for knowledge accumulation (that's the reason why they're still used by specialized communities), the major issue with forums, as pointed out, is the hassle of having to go from one website to another to talk about various subjects and needing to sign up to each one of them.
As for solving the "little Kings" issue, dumb backend, smart frontend. Remove admins from the equation, those hosting are only there to host. People moderate communities but communities can easily be replaced. People create a frontend to access the backend but from a user point of view it doesn't make a difference what frontend they use, they will get access to the same content.
The fact that I've written this comment a dozen times since last year proves a point, Reddit/Lemmy style websites just lead to content being repeated again and again. This comment will get lost to time just like all the other times I shared my opinion on the subject. On a forum it would be part of the ongoing discussion and anyone who wanted to go through the whole thread where all discussions on that subject to place would read it, no matter how long it had been since I posted.
Honestly the "having to sign up" part would be trivial to solve if topical forums just globally adopted OpenID sign-in or similar. No need to have one account per community if you already have (or "are") an account in the World.
But even then, there's a point to having to go through a sign-up process. At least some sort of vetting. We have seen how far have fallen all the communities that have ever relaxed sign-ups (as another comment in this thread shows, there was once a time when FB only allowed educated people in).
I don't know, if there's any hosted instances of it, or how mature it is, but one of the Lemmy devs has experimented with using the frontend of phpBB (basically the software for old-school forums) with a Lemmy backend: [email protected]
To my knowledge, they had some pretty quick successes with it and one might be able to just slap this onto a server right now...
Last updates where in April 2023, priority not on their priority list
There are several forum software companies working on ActivityPub support, I know both Discourse and NodeBB have been working on it for a while
Indeed, hopefully they can complete compatibility at some point
Once a thread gets large enough, no one is going back to read the first page. Maybe for communities on Lemmy, “Active” is the sort method that would work the best as you’d describe, but sorting the comments/replies by votes seems the best method to make sure the most important knowledge is visible
I don't disagree.
There is one forum I still participate in:
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/
It's mostly tech-focussed and Australia-centric, but it does have other topics like sport, TV etc..
I wish there were more like this.
I hate that the bulk of online discussion is now owned/monopolised by a couple of huge corporations.
There are many forums like that, especially if you're not limited to one language. Most of the ones I frequent have been around for 10 or 20 years or more, but kind of fly under the radar. ilxor being a very good example. AFAIK, the latter also adds only one new user per day. I'd say that's a good thing, even though I had to apply several times.
Specific forums for certain things are still the best.
I have an Aprilia motorcycle from 1999, and the Aprilia forum has 20 years of info, discussion, and advice on that specific motorcycle.
It is also a bit surreal seeing someone reply to my question and see that they joined the forum itself back when I was less that 1 years old.
Isn't this just Discourse?
I'll go take a look, but isn't it just the software behind the various forums and you need separate credentials for each one?
It has ActivityPub support so it is connected to the fediverse in some ways. Lemmy doesn't work with it though AFAIK because Lemmy doesn't support posts made outside communities.
Why doesn't discourse simply make their different topics into communities is the question
I mean you could equally ask why does Lemmy not support posts outside communities? It's on both parties to interoperate I think. Lemmy also uses a specific extension to ActivityPub while Discourse's posts and Mastodon's posts and such are pretty standard, but still not picked up by Lemmy.
I think Mastodon is very far from standard. Way I hear it from the developers, it's lemmy that is following the Apub standard. But I will disclaim that I'm not an expert to judge either way.
As for the posts outside communities? That makes sense lemmy-wise I think. Where would those posts be? But it doesn't make sense for Discourse, since they are indeed separated into topics.
I think it's much closer to standard than Lemmy and I've looked into it quite a bit recently. ActivityPub is unfortunately quite focused on microblogging. Honestly lemmys way of doing it is a little hacky.
I actually think it's quite straightforward, they'd just be on a users page. This is actually how Reddit has also done it ever since they introduced the feature (much before they enshittified everything else).
You can think of it like every users profile being a community of its own but only the user itself can post to it. Just conceptually speaking.
That would also let you follow users just as you can follow communities.
We need this for sure
Not gonna lie, I'd love for better integration between services, but I am fairly sure I saw lemmy devs adamantly insisting they're following apub and mastodon is doing it wrong so 🤷
Its not that anyone is "doing it wrong" and Mastodon doesn't really support Lemmys communities either. So Lemmy works in a bit of a funky way that doesn't match most other fediverse services.
Its just a bit strange that Lemmy does not support the more common posts outside communities since that is how most of the fediverse works, so we're kinda missing out on a lot of content that we can't see on Lemmy.
This is the FEP Lemmy uses but most other fediverse services do not use it and Lemmy does not support anything that doesn't use this FEP. So again, it's not that Lemmy is doing something wrong, but Lemmy is not supporting how most of the rest of the fediverse functions.
OK, so is lemmy out of standard or not? Like I can understand why lemmy doesn't support apub notes, as it's out of scope, but why does mastodon support articles badly?
ActivityPub is an extensible protocol. It is not just one thing. Lemmy only supports posts that follow that extension I linked above. That extension has a definition and Lemmy follows it so in that way it is "standard". But it is an extension, not part of the core protocol.
Mastodon and most other fediverse services do not support this extension.
Sounds like mastodon and other services ought to really support this extension though.
Sure. But lemmy would still not show Mastodon posts outside communities even if they supported that extension. Both parties need to move towards each other.
My brother, this is that website
No, it's not. Unless they only allow the sorting of threads based on which discussions has the newest comment (bumping) and remove comment nesting (so discussions are ongoing instead of branching off which makes it difficult to keep up with what's new in the different threads), it's not that website.
Isn’t that exactly what “Active” sort does?
Only works if it's the way everyone is sorting their feed.
Can't someone make a client or a UI which does this?
They have [email protected]
Lemmy is just a forum set to sort by new posts, not new comments.
Lemmy already has both of those sorting options built in
Only works if everyone is sorting the same way otherwise by replying to an old post you're just screaming in the void.
Again, unless it works the same way for everyone then people are just replying to old discussions and no one knows about it except for the person they're replying to.
How so? I generally scroll to the bottom on here
You can use "New comments" to see, well, new comments.
Look at this conversation, it's old enough that it doesn't show in my feed anymore (sorted by top 6h), if I wasn't taking part in it no matter how many people replied to it I would never know it took place.
That's what I'm talking about, if sorting is up to the user then most people only see "fresh" content, not ongoing conversations that they might want to take part in if they realized they're happening. Same for the comments sections, threaded makes it harder to check what's new (have to go down each branch to get the context).
I see this comment two days in the future.
We probably could promote using "New comments" more.
It seems to me the only thing you're missing from the functionality you want on lemmy is a sorting system which just bumps any threads with new comments to the top. I don't like that approach myself, but if that's what you want I don't see a reason not to have it. Why don't you suggest it to the lemmy devs? It doesn't seem like it would be difficult to add it.
EDIT: Actually, nevermind, this already exists with the "New Comments" feature. Why don't you just use that? https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/?dataType=Post&listingType=Subscribed&sort=NewComments
Only works if everyone's experience is the same and discussions are centralized in threads. I added to my comment but on a forum that discussion would be part of a thread where all similar articles/discussions would be centralized instead of having a new thread being opened on the same subject every few weeks and people having to rewrite the same opinion every time (or just not sharing their opinion anymore because they're tired of repeating themselves every time someone wants to talk about that subject).
There's no knowledge accumulation with the way things work on Reddit/Lemmy, just repetition and things being forgotten.
I can't disagree enough. There was little knowledge accumulation in oldschool forums either. There were constant arguments about thread necromancy and people not searching before asking. It sounds like you're describing a parallel idyllic universe.
This kind of knowledge repository is why were have megathreads and/or attached wikis.
Regardless of that, if you really wanted to run a lemmy instance like that, you can do that right now. You can set up a lemmy instance where you default to sorting everything by "New Comments" and discussions as "Chat" and you get an identical model to old school forums. Hell, as long as you find a good amount of like-minded folks and you all agree to sort the same way, you can build up your "knowledge accumulation" inside the existing lemmy instances and communities.
Everything you'll ever want to know about a specific model of motorcycle, all in a single thread:
https://advrider.com/f/threads/yamaha-wr250r-threadfest.936588/
Ask a question and people will tell you what page to look at if you can't find it, post something that has already been talked about and they'll refer you to the page where people talked about it.
On here? You could repost the exact same text tomorrow in a different community and the same discussion would happen again. Post it again in this community in a month and the same discussion will happen again without anyone noticing that you're reposting.
Necroing in order to continue talking about something and build on the base already established is much better than the constant repost and knowledge reset we see on here where the same questions are asked again and again and again and people need to explain the same things again and again and again.
You are relying on some random people being around to serve as your search engine. Cmon. You can do the same thing here with megathreads and wikis. Hell you can also ask around on megathreads and people will link you. Nothing you describe here is unique to forums.
The same happened in forums. Even in forums with megathreads like these, people asked the same question again and again. This is a matter of culture, not of software. You just happened to find a forum with a good culture and assumed it's the result of the software.
Just build that community here and you have the same results AND federation with other topics if needed.
Also I lowkey find the expectation that you rely on people with thousands of bookmarks to be around to point you to a page in one gigathread to be quite disturbing.
Let's say you find a month old discussion with a reply to a question you've got but you have further questions, here's the major difference.
On Reddit/Lemmy you have two options, you reply to that same discussion and only the person you replied to knows you replied, no one comes to help OR you create a new discussion leading to the knowledge on that subject being split up between two discussions, meaning that the next person who has the same issue will probably find that first thread and repeat the same process.
On an old school forum you just reply to the original discussion, it gets bumped up, everyone sees that you have further questions, no need for a new discussion, all knowledge is in the same place, next person who needs an answer to that question now finds all the info they need in the same place, no need to ask further questions of the issue is resolved, if it isn't they just bump that thread and more knowledge is added.
Megathreads are locked at the top and people see new replies only if they bother looking. Nested comments mean that you need to go through all branches to check what's new (hell, nested comments leads to people repeating the same thing as others,in the same thread, at the same time without realizing it because the same discussion is happening simultaneously in multiple branches!). Wikis are just a third party solution without any discussion happening and where only the people who bother editing the Wiki (or that are allowed to) add to it (which isn't as easy as just writing a message on a forum).
Edit: Just want to say that I agree with you on something though, having to rely on other users can be a pain on forums but that's mostly a forum internal search engine issue that has always been an issue...
Let's say you find a year old discussion, you don't bother to read 120 pages, so you just ask your question at the end. If you're lucky enough not to be in a forum that won't flame you for necroing and not searching, you're given a link to a page. You visit that page but don't find the answer. Then ask again. Maybe this time you get a correct link, or maybe you get flamed this time.
See how it's easy to make hypotheticals? Not to disrespect your preferences, but this approach is downright inane. What you'e describing is working despite the software, not because of it. As others mentioned in this thread, you get the exact opposite reactions to another forum about automobiles.
You know what is superior to this? Having a lemmy community about this one motorcycle model, with an FAQ or wiki on the side. People can ask a question as a new thread, and guess what, people can link them to a previously answered thread, just like they would link them to a specific page in your gigathread. Nothing functionally changes here. The lack of threading or sorting by new comments doesn't change the experience. It's the willingness to be nice to newbies that matters.
What you're describing is simply changing a lemmy community into a single thread in a bbforum. It is an objectively worse scenario.
In lemmy you start with a generic topic. Say, automobiles. If it starts getting too busy, you start two new communities, cars and motorcycles, if those get too busy, you expand to brands and models. Each of them nicely organized and easily searchable by titles.
What I see here is a community that coalesced around an old forum software and did the best it could. Unlike most others, it happened to have the right people to make the best of it and find a working system with what they got. But again, it's not the software, it's the people, which is proven by so many similar communities in similar software just failing miserable instead.
I would argue that this community would work much better with a software much better suited for it.