this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2024
680 points (98.6% liked)
Political Memes
5605 readers
538 users here now
Welcome to politcal memes!
These are our rules:
Be civil
Jokes are okay, but don’t intentionally harass or disturb any member of our community. Sexism, racism and bigotry are not allowed. Good faith argumentation only. No posts discouraging people to vote or shaming people for voting.
No misinformation
Don’t post any intentional misinformation. When asked by mods, provide sources for any claims you make.
Posts should be memes
Random pictures do not qualify as memes. Relevance to politics is required.
No bots, spam or self-promotion
Follow instance rules, ask for your bot to be allowed on this community.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Are you suggesting that the native american tribes couldn't have had democratic societies? Why no[t?
I guess, you have some reading to do](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy#Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas)
I also suggest David Graeber's and David Wengrow's "The dawn of everything", if you're interested in the likely roots of US democracy.
No, I'm suggesting that the idea that the European Enlightenment era ideals of democracy were stolen from Native Americans because Europeans were too dumb to look at their own contemporary democratic societies and European history is fucking absurd.
Which contemporary democratic european societies do you mean, exactly? Which ones existed before the enlightenment?
Seriously, read the first few chapters of the dawn of everything. It's worth it.
Free Communes, guild-run city-states, peasant republics, the Swiss, Slavic Veche, Germanic Things, Diets, Parliaments, the Polish Commonwealth, the Hussites, Jesus fucking Christ.
Even if I'm a bit skeptical how "democratic" some of these were (since the prevalent ideology pre enlightenment in europe was that the demos wasn't actually capable of conducting policy) and how much e.g. germanic things of all things would have influenced central and western european thought that much (especially rince enlightenment philosophers usually referenced ancient greece - which actually didn't really favour our notion of democracy). I give you that democratic structures did partially exist in Europe.
I'm still a bit baffled that you would consider it ridiculous that native American thought didn't have any input on the enlightenment over 100 years after europe has discovered
Also: the native Americans were right there, the founding fathers knew of their great law of peace and the US congress has even passed a resolution on how that great law of peace had influenced the US constitution.
Yes, goodness me, how silly thinking that Germanic institutions might have influence on Central and Western Europe, which were filled with Germanic-derived states.
What.
Why would it? Ethnographic studies of Native Americans were not of considerable interest to European philosophers at the time. And certainly not accurate ones.
... did they? SOME of them practiced democratic forms of governance. But unless you're going to argue that the rationalist, social-contract style thinking of the Enlightenment was replicated amongst Native American tribes, I don't really know how much similarity there is in the thinking beyond the commonality of all democratic polities, in Africa, Europe, Asia, and the Americas.
Yes, I am well aware that the Founding Fathers knew about Native Americans and their forms of governance; that has very little to do with the Enlightenment-era ideals that predominated in the thinking and execution of the foundational documents of the USA.
Wait a second... are you suggesting that prussia could be considered a "germanic" country back then? Do you think they had things in saxony? Lol ^^
Our notion that democracy was spear-headed in athens is highly romanticized.
Ahem... "Philosophy is when you are uninterested in the biggest anthropological discovery of the last two centuries. The less interest you have, the more philosophic it is.".
Foreign culture is filtered through your own cultural lenses. Ever seen japanese media based on Goethe's Faust?
What? I thought it was...
Are you saying Prussia isn't a Germanic-derived state? Do I... do I have to educate you on Christian colonialism in Europe now too?
No, they had Diets.
... okay...?
Sorry that you were aware of early modern European racism two comments ago, but have seemingly entirely forgotten it now.
This you?
Because I'm pretty sure this is the third time I've mentioned that this is what I'm refuting. It's getting kind of tedious reminding you of what you just said a few comments ago. Are you even trying, or just keeping up the conversation so you don't have to confront how monumentally incorrect your statement was?
lol, things in Prussia, ok. ^^
Are you claiming the founding fathers weren't european?
This is what you said
But it seems to be too much to ask of you that you remember your own claims.
All seven were born and raised in the Americas.
Again, this is what YOU said
I can't believe I have to remind you of what you said over and over again, and that you still don't seem to recognize it. Do I need to underline it? Find a highlighter?
this u?
They were culturally still european, otherwise, your enlightenment point wouldn't make sense, either.
... yes...? That is me asking if you meant what you just said. Jesus Christ.
"Americans are not allowed to take from the European Enlightenment that I specifically cited as coming from Europe and which no serious historian doubts was instrumental in the thinking of the Founding Fathers and the founding documents of the US; an Enlightenment that arose independently of Native American polities and thinking - also something no serious academic disputes."
Okay buddy. We're done here.
Boy, they could use your strawman abilities in Gävle.