this post was submitted on 29 Jan 2024
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That would homestly be nice. It's not about Eurovision, but about sending a message. If Russia gets banned from many activities for invading a sovereign country, Israel should get the same treatment for doing what is (at best) the same.
What does Hammas should get for slaughtering 1200 people?
Hamas *
Contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, Hamas is not participating in the Eurovision Song Contest. Shocking, I know.
That's already happening, I think.
Not trying to start a thing but I don't remember the part of the Russia/Ukraine conflict where a faction of Ukrainian militants committed horrible atrocities against Russian civilians just trying to enjoy life.
Face it, what Hamas, Gaza's de facto globally recognized governing power, did to the people of Israel was as bad or worse than 9/11 - comparing Russia to Israel seems iffy at best...
Nice math /s
If October 7th was one 9/11 then I guess October 8, 9th, 10th... Until today would be about... Let's say... Forty or fifty 9/11s?
You're right. It's worse than Russia Ukraine. More than 6 times as many civilians have died in Gaza. It's an active genocide.
Still wouldn't justify an invasion, full stop, let alone one purposefully targeting civilians who have nothing to do with it.
Funny you should mention that... Did you know that Israel has killed an equivalent of 9/11, on average, every 5 days since October 7th, of which half are children?
Oh, and in terms of numbers, "as bad or worse than 9/11"... if you go by the numbers, it's 766 civilians killed on October 7th vs 2600-3000 on 9/11. So, you're not only off by a factor of 4 there, but you seem clueless how your analogy would look when describing Israels ongoing genocide.
Comparing Russia to Israel is cutting Israel some undeserved slack, even though it's a dumb contest of who's being the least shitty turd stain on humanity.
In a country that is 36 times smaller than the US. Look at what 9/11 caused psychologically on a societal level in the US, and how it affected the political decisions in the decade after (sadly).
In the end, Hamas did start the current war, and bears the main responsibility for the civilian deaths on both sides during it. At the same time, I loathe the current Israeli government, and do think that there have been war crimes committed in Gaza by the IDF, that need to be investigated. The thing is, the Israeli government can and will be replaced in the next election. The same is not possible for Hamas, who are just as detrimental to a two state solution.
Most people commenting in this thread seem to have it all figured out and have very clear opinions for a conflict that simply is not that easy to solve.
There has been an ongoing state of hostility since the colonisation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine by European settlers in 1948.
Poor Palestinians... Their fate is in the hands of the good citizens of Israel. π
Palestinians are capable of voting and can vote Hamas out. Why should they not have an election? Hamas is willing to do it, the Palestinians are willing to do it, and the PA is too. Guess who DOESN'T concent to this?
Just more excuses and justifications for a war meant to genocide them...
Because Hamas doesn't want an election. They are in power. They got rid of Fatah in Gaza. Do you think if there would be a free and open election in Gaza, Israel could have stopped it before October 7th?
At least Hamas stopped throwing their inner-Palestinian opposition off high-rise roofs since 2007, from what I heard. Now you might just mercifully get shot as an "Israeli spy".
I'm all for a free Palestine, but the way there isn't Hamas for gods sake.
The way there is by ending the occupation and allowing Palestinians to vote and be given their right to self determination.
But "Hamas" is such a convenient excuse when the conclusion is always Palestinians not voting and not having the right to vote. There is no need or justification for you to use Hamas as an excuse for this. This is the best chance to get Hamad out: to have them voted out by all-Palestinian elections.
The only side not wanting an election for Palestinians now is Israel, and has always been.
Palestinians deserve better than living on the kindness of the citizens of Israel, their occupiers.
You're all for free Palestine? Then you need to really stand for Palestine and stop the "but Hamas!" rhetoric.
Honestly, I think we are not that far from each other.
Netanyahu propped up Hamas for years exactly because he knew that there wouldn't be a unified Palestinian state as long as they are in charge. That was one of the ways his governments worked against the worked against a two-state solution.
You a wrong in thinking that Hamas is not oppressing Gazans just as much as Israel is though. They are the reason why there hasn't been a democratic election in Gaza since 2006.
That's... what do you mean by "current war"? The rest of that take is arguably not as clear cut as you think it is. Hamas bears the responsibility for killing 766 civilians. Israel bears the responsibility for killing 30 000 civilians. If you start counting on October 7th, that is. The way you are wording it seems veeeery apologetic of genocide. That it's somehow not the responsibility of those perpetrating it, but instead those who (in your opinion) threw the first rock?
The war of the last 4 months.
The count of 30k deaths in Gaza includes civilians and Hamas fighters (but Hamas doesn't publish these numbers). But you subtract alleged Israeli military/police deaths on October 7th from Hamas' death toll.
I said "main responsibility". Of course Israel still has responsibility for the deaths in Gaza. But people act like Hamas didn't anticipate Israels counterstrike exactly like it unfolded (not that I think that it is a good thing that Israel acted exactly in that way).
"homestly"
Do you think that Russia would have been banned if Ukraine started the invasion by massacring hundreds of innocent civilians at a rave party in Russia, and took random tourists back home to Ukraine to rape them, and then spread videos of it all?
Now, Israel is all but innocent. But it is not 1:1 comparable
You think this started on October 7th? What about the years beforehand of deaths? Do you need someone to bring out the chart again comparing civilian deaths for the last few decades?
Another difference is that Russia attacked another Eurovision country. I don't know why Israel is even in Eurovision, but Palestine definitely isn't.
Indeed itβs not a 1 to 1 comparison. One country is ordered by the ICJ to stop committing a genocide, and the other isnβt.
Thats just complete BS. Everyone can read the statement from the ICJ. And no, your claim is not part of it. So maybe stop spreading lies on the internet. Its not like this whole conflict is easy to discuss considering facts, but watering the discussion with lies doesn't help anyone.
It has been ordered to PREVENT a hypothetical genocie, not to stop "committing a genocide".
Israel has done enough bad shit that you don't need to lie to prove your point
Who is committing the hypothetical genocide?
Russia started a war of aggression so it makes sense they are banned from Eurovision till that has been resolved.
Israel is committing war crimes on a scale that is rare in modern history, so also a good reason to be banned.
And bringing up the oktober 7 attacks kinda sounds hollow after the response from Israel. Hammas killed 1.139 and Israel killed well over 25.000.
Hamas committed a direct attack on civilians, without any military target in mind what-so-ever. Obviously this will be a serious crime against humanity in most people's eyes that makes it harder to count Israel's response as unwarranted, counting in their wrongdoings.
With the Rus-Ukr conflict, the same country is both the aggressor and the attacker that started the invasion. That makes it easier to see who the undoubtedly "bad guy" is.
I'm disappointed that we are both snek. I maintain that I'm spookier than you.
Btw Hamas mostly attacked military installations, military infrastructure, and military targets. Not an excuse for killing civilians, but I see this piece of misinformation being thrown around a lot and I wonder where it came from.
Ah yes, my favorite military installation, a music festival.
So do you mean that no military tagerts were hit? Is this the claim we're discussing here?
About 1/4th of the Israelis deaths on October 7th were members of the military. The IDF by it's own reports has killed two civilians for every Hamas member, so 1/3rd of the deaths are military. They have killed at least 10k civilians in one month, so just a bit more than Russia did in the whole war but 10 times as much as Hamas managed! With those numbers let's keep in mind that Hamas are terrorists while the IDF is an organised army of a democratic state which claims to uphold human rights even in war times.
So yeah, neither side gets a medal from me for holding back against civilians.
hamas are terrorists. all terrorism is a crime against humanity. but what israel is doing is also a crime against humanity. even the settlements could be considered such a thing. and i'm not even going to talk about the fact that palestinian refugees don't have a right of return to their land, that opens a new definition of crime done by a state.
israel must be isolated, banning them from eurovision is a must for the organization. uefa and fifa should ban them as well from international competitions. but this isolation is already late and the current actions of israel reflect the inaction of the international community towards their many habitual crimes against palestinians.
Hamas is the aggressor in this specific part of the almost 100 year old conflict, that resulted in the current circumstances.
What genocide are you referring to?
"Conflict" makes it sound like a dispute. Let's call it what REALLT is: apartheid, occupation, and ethnic cleansing.
By that logic the specific part of the current genocide in Gaza Israel is the unambiguous aggressor.
Like: You cannot just ignore what came before. WTF?
Well, if you cut it like that, you could cut it a month later. Now Israel is the aggressor!
It's not that simple.
None in particular, Iβm saying there is no excuse for genocide. So to determine if Israel is committing one, the actions of Hamas are irrelevant.