Instead of acting like an entitled brat, why don't you go start your own instance. Shouldn't be too hard, just some little technical know how and few bucks a month. Should be a small price to pay to escape venture capitalists. If you can't handle it then too bad, just tough it out.
Gorilladrums
joined 2 years ago
They’re always combined together. They’re considered part of the same event.
Are you really dumb enough to not understand my point with the dates? You made the stupid argument that if there was a really a massacre then why isn't the tank man dead. This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is because it shows you don't understand what happened. The Chinese government gave the soldiers the order to massacre the students protesting on June 4th, tank man and the picture of him happened AFTER the massacre on June 5th.
the myth that people died in the square.
So let me get this straight, your grand argument to justify this massacre is that the people weren't killed in the square itself but right outside of it? Damn, you sure showed how innocent and glorious the CCP is with this zinger.
I gave more recent examples too. The only reason I went back that far is to show that the US has been shooting at its citizens from the beginning.
You literally had one single relevant example. Even if we take all the other examples you gave and ignore their validity for a second, they still had less deaths combined than the Tienanmen Square massacre.
Keep in mind, China is a lot newer of a country than the US, so it feels fitting.
No way somebody is dumb enough to think China, one of the world's oldest civilizations, is newer than the US. China didn't start in 1949.
And 1970 isn’t that much older than 1989. You act like it’s ancient history.
You don't even know what the topic of conversation is, do you? If you scroll up this thread and read what the original point of contention is, then you'll quickly realize that it's about some idiot saying that the US TODAY is worse than China. You citing examples from 1791 to 1970 shows that you either have no idea what the conversation is about or your argument is so weak that you have go that far back to find anything.
Once again, Mao didn’t kill more than Hitler. Famines are not the same as purposeful targeted genocides.
Mao's death toll is so high that his non famine deaths give the Holocaust's death toll a run for its money. Let's do some basic arithmetic:
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Chinese land reforms: 1 million - 4.7 million
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Government violence during the Great Chinese Famine: 2.5 million
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Anti-Rightist Campaign: 550k - 2 million
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Campaign to Suppress Counterrevolutionaries: 712k - 2 million
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Three-anti and Five-anti campaigns: 100k
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Cultural Revolution: 500k - 2 million
That's bring us to: 5.362 million - 13.3 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_China#People's_Republic_of_China_(since_1949)
So even if we exclude the famine, which we shouldn't because those deaths are direct result of his policies, his death toll is still either half of that of the Holocaust at best or even higher the Holocaust at worst. When we factor the Great Chinese Famine that he caused, then he's well and away the greatest killer in history.
If you want, we can say that US Presidents are worse than both if you add every death resulting from every war, and every post-war famine, civil war, etc that the US has been involved with.
Except we're not going to say because that's idiotic logic. First of all no, not a single American president comes even close to Mao's death toll. Second of all, his death toll, like Hitler's, is a direct result of his policies. These death toll figures don't include deaths caused by wars. If we included the Chinese Civil war or the host of other wars that he involved in, then he might actually top 100 million death by himself. Thirdly, even IF we did include wars, what kind of clown counts every single death in wars, including the deaths caused be the enemies, as a part of the death toll? Not only that, but including subsequent events as well? That's stupid.
Not to mention that the numbers you quoted aren’t reliable.
No, they're extremely reliable. All the estimates are provided by independent research teams and well respected academics who's full research, sources, and methodology are have been peer reviewed and are available to all who wish to see them. You just want to find any excuse to dismiss the figures because they don't conform to your tankie biases.
Their sources are dubious and usually CIA funded. Deng’s numbers are a bit more realistic at 16.5 million but still most likely exaggerated because of the downplaying of Mao’s legacy they were doing at the time, like you mentioned. US numbers are usually wild guesses and extrapolations.
Do you actually think successfully arguing that the death toll is "only" 16.5 million is some sort of win? Not only is it sad that you think that, but it's also a losing battle because that figure is well below what most academics estimate. There's another thing, simply putting saying "US" or "CIA" in front of everything you don't like doesn't discredit the validity or accuracy of those figures or statements whatsoever nor does it make the association inherently bad. These assumptions exclusively exist in the empty minds tankies who think the rest of the world thinks like them, well they don't.
People understand that despite all it's flaws, the US is still a liberal democracy that actually has freedom of speech and freedom of the press. This means that academics in the US are extremely reliable because they're independent researchers who can publish all their research without fear of manipulation or censorship from the government regardless of how the government wishes the results were or how they make the government look.
This isn't the case in China because it's an authoritarian country, and so research on touchy subjects is inherently unreliable because it all goes through the great CCP filter. Not to mention that the research on Mao's astronomical death toll isn't exclusive to US researchers. Academics all over the world have studied the same material and came up with estimates that are largely in the same range. So no matter what excuse you come up with, they simply won't mean anything because you're defending a position that contradicts reality.
successful revolutionary who freed them from an oppressive monarchy
What monarchy lmao? China has been a republic since 1912. I know tankies are ignorant, but do you seriously not know who the communists fought during the Chinese civil war? Because that's astounding levels of ignorance.
brought them socialism, cut poverty, increased life expectancy, reduced mortality, increased the spread of education and healthcare, and led them on the path to where they are now as an extremely successful country.
Literally all of this is false. Mao's policies were such massive failures that killed so many people and brought so much suffering that the country was actually on the brink of collapse. After he died, his successor, Deng Xiaoping, had to do a de-Maoization to help save the country. The Chinese economy under Mao was extremely small and stagnant, and China didn't experience any real economic growth until Xiaoping started liberalizing the economy. In the late 70s and throughout the 80s, he introduced a series of reforms that allowed people to own private property, allowed foreign investment to flow into the country, created "special economic zones" where capitalism ran free, and allowed markets to exist again. Only then did China economic rise start to take off.
You can literally see this in GDP numbers:
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/chn/china/gdp-gross-domestic-product
And yes, they were increasing life expectancy even while he was in charge.
The country went through a genocide that killed 30 million people followed by a civil war that killed 10 million people. The life expectancy in China in 1945 was 33.4 years. Literally any sort of stability would've seen a rise in life expectancy. We saw the same thing happen in Russia, Germany, and bunch of countries who exited eras of brutal war. With that being said, Mao wasn't exactly good for the life expectancy, you clearly see in the country's life expectancy graphs when the famine happened as well as when his brutal massacres started slowing down:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041350/life-expectancy-china-all-time/
And yes, the US is worse today. They are enabling a genocide. That’s basically the checkmate of atrocities.
China is arming Russia's genocide in Ukraine as well as committing their own genocides in TIbet and Xinjiang. So if we're using mental gymnastics make the US indirectly supporting Israel count as enabling genocide, then China has a checkmate x3.
Its not a competition, but the point is that these statements and propaganda always start as a way to encourage war and conflict with other countries.
These atrocities are historical facts, not propaganda, and recognizing them isn't going to start wars. What kind of idiot thinks that recognizing and condemning an atrocity like the holocaust is propaganda to start a war? If you ever get the self awareness to wonder why nobody likes tankies, this is why.
It’s why China doesn’t celebrate the Kent massacre every year or the Civil War
Nobody is celebrating this massacre you dimwit. People are acknowledging and condemning it because, unlike the US, the Chinese government denies the atrocities it committed and pretends this massacre never happened.
They don’t have military bases all over the world and aren’t constantly invading and occupying other countries,
Yes they literally are. Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, India, Tibet, and the list goes on and on.
And while China has a lot of negative points, that’s what makes the US worse that people in it don’t understand: it’s inperialistic nature.
Clearly, you don't understand what imperialism is either because if you think China isn't imperialist then you're huffing something strong.
The context that the reason this is promoted multiple times a year as opposed to any particular atrocities committed by western media that this can be used to justify further hostile action against a foreign nation.
Here you are at again, this is NOT context. Context is when you add relevant information to a topic in a discussion. What you're doing here is the tu quoue fallacy. Do you understand why the fallacy you're using is just that? Do you even understand why fallacies are considered bad to begin with? We can't have an honest discussion if you can't comprehend this.
If you still use the word “authoritarian”, You’re not ready to have a meaningful discussion on the event anymore than a zionist screeching about “terrorists” is capable of discussing Oct 6th.
What other word would you use to describe it? You have a very big government that tries to control every aspect of society at the expense of the freedoms and rights of its citizens, it places a lot overbearing rules that are enforced very strictly, and those who break these rules receive punishments that disproportionately exceed the crime. In this case, the CCP is a tyrannical government that ordered soldiers to kill students for the crime of peacefully protesting. That's the textbook definition of what authoritarianism is. How am I, or anyone, supposed to take you seriously, when you can't even admit a basic fact like the CCP is authoritarian? Even they don't deny it.
I don't think you understand that norms and civility are a requirement for a peaceful, well functioning democracy. If you see them as a nuisance then you're either an authoritarian or an idiot. Like seriously, do you think society is going to function if every self righteous politician start being obnoxious when something doesn't go their way? That braindead mentality is literally how we ended up with Trump and MAGA in the US. It is THE first pillar to fall when on your way to authoritarianism.
These politicians can support or oppose whatever they want, it's their job to do so. However, disrupting the duties of the parliament is not a part of their job, and they know that. If a couple of white politicians in New Zealand started doing berserker rituals every time something doesn't go their way in parliament, will you still be making excuses? If not, then you hold double standards and you're racist. They're the same people, in the same country, and they should abide by customs that they set for themselves. The New Zealand parliament usually has 120, 117 members with vastly different opinions can conduct themselves just fine, 3 can't. Those 3 got suspended.
You are being downvoted because, whether you realize it or not, what you wrote is extremely racist.
If you think what I said was racist then you're an idiot who doesn't know what racism is.
These are Maori. It’s their land and their traditions, and they are being attacked for both by white, authoritarian colonists. It’s unacceptable.
Calling New Zealand of all places authoritarian is the dumbest thing I've read all day. No, being Maori or any specific ethnic group doesn't excuse anyone for acting like a jackass. At the end of the day people of all different races live in New Zealand, and that's the way it is and will be. If you hold different standards on how people of different races can and can't behave, then you yourself are racist.
Keep in mind, we're not talking about regular people here, we're talking about elected representatives. These people studied the political sphere, they campaigned, and they won elections. They understand what their duties are and what the scope of their activity should be. The whole point of their job is for them have civil dialogue with their colleagues on how the country should function. If they can't do that then they're disrupting the functions of the parliament and they should be condemned for it.
I think people are obsessing over this case because a bunch of rich and powerful people got publicly exposed as a part of the same ring, but there's certainly way more out there. I'm sure a bunch other politicians, billionaires, clergymen, celebrities, and a whole host of other people with influence has their own rings all over the world.
There's no way the election was rigged, this is 2020 election denial bullshit. The election results were in line with what the polls were showing, and it also shows in his approval ratings. The reality is that the people really wanted Trump again for some reason.
He's the richest man in the world, he doesn't need to be involved with Epstein at all, he's rich enough to fund his own pedo ring
But you're conflating two different things. Someone who doesn't think about politics 24/7 isn't necessarily politically unaware or politically inactive. It just means that they understand there's more to life than politics. You can recognize that politics has more influence on your life than other things, but it's not the only influence on your life nor is it everything in life. I mean you lived through it, you should know as well as I do that even during blackouts and war, people still find ways to do things life that isn't politics.
Something this basic seems to be beyond comprehension for Lemmy users for some reason.
What fucking context lmao? You literally provided nothing. There's no sources, no arguments, no explanations, no points, absolutely zero context was provided. The only things you did do was make false assumptions and use fallacious reasoning to justify using logical fallacies. That's not context, that's trying to justify poor critical thinking skills.
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These aren't next, these are already forgotten even though they're catastrophes. Hell, even Ukraine is being forgotten even though it's one the biggest wars in 21st century. When India and Pakistan looked like they were about to go to war, this Israel/Palestine war was also pushed to the back of people's minds.
I think this is the just the nature of humans. People want to think they're noble and righteous, but they won't actually do anything, and the moment a new war starts they'll move on to that because it's new and we have short attention spands.