Serfdom reinvented
this post was submitted on 06 Jan 2025
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Under capitalism the people are a natural resource to be exploited for wealth, just like minerals, wood, and arable land.
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Life of Haiti
Show what they know. I've been highly inefficient at it.
Hope I’m not thinking too abstractly here:
If you’re an individual with only their bare hands in a society that doesn’t need manual labor, not even necessarily a capitalist society, then that society would have to give you something (education) in order for you to give back to society. Once they do, you’d owe them. Maybe not dollars, maybe a moral obligation, but they’d only give you something expecting a return
“The rich get richer” through things like stock buybacks are their own issue. I just don’t get the implication this is a genuine multi-layer representation of an issue.
Fuck that, I never asked to be born. Send the bill to my parents.
Otoh, there's always work digging ditches or nursing. Most people would prefer nursing in that scenario. Extend this metaphor to whatever job we're short of and make that education free until we're not short of it anymore.
I mean that's the problem, whichever country you want to do this in, the world has started automating its hole-digging. Not sure why you're using nursing as an example, since that's a very specialized field that needs a lot of student loans to get into. Traveling nurses are in high demand.
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I guess I take issue with the fact that you can't realistically opt out. Maybe if you are a wilderness survivalist type then maybe you can go do a Thoreau or Davy Crocket or whatever and just build a log cabin in the woods somewhere. But that's very rare these days, and society is moving forward so fast that tens of millions of people are being left behind because they lack the technical skills to thrive in a modern economy, and the survival skills to thrive in an old school agrarian economy. When that many people are left behind, it becomes a major social problem that'll come home to roost eventually.
There are sci-fi depictions of perfect utopias where automation has maintained so much of modern life that people need neither learn nor contribute. But, not only would I be somewhat opposed to going in such a lethargic direction, we're also a very long way from that sort of utopia, and we'd need more educated people to handle it.
I certainly don't claim that the current pattern of "No one can afford medical school, no one can become a doctor, and thus no one can AFFORD a doctor" is a good one. But the work needed to invest in giving the world more doctors is still an investment, be it monetary or otherwise. Medical schools do not purely operate out of the goodness of their heart; they expect to work within a system (and be given their own means for survival).
Do you also believe you have a debt to your parents that needs to be repaid?
Like exasperation said, I feel I owe it to them to make considerate Christmas gifts, call often to socialize with them even if some days I'd rather be playing video games, etc.
And, some people probably don't feel that obligation because their parents didn't respect them or help them grow up well.
Legally, no. Morally? Probably. I try to take care of my parents, and make their lives easier where I can, when I can, to try to at least somewhat alleviate how I've made their lives harder at earlier stages in life.
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Ah no, educated citizens is to the advantage of the society. Not in working power but in not falling back to a totalist system with low living standards.
A good, free education is to the benefit of society.
You do not incur a debt for the 12 years of school you're already mandated to receive, because that education makes society better. You become a better, more productive adult as a result of it.
But now we find that that education is not enough. Most people are not graduating high school with the necessary skills and knowledge to become that fully functioning adult. So, it is too society's benefit to extend that education.
This should not be transactional. We the people provide the education, and we the people benefit.
expecting a return
It's called taxes. In many normal places, some people qualify (based on secondary education grades or other things like military service) to receive free higher education (basically sponsored by the government) that is paid off later over the years by taxes or contributions to the GDP.
Once they do, you’d owe them. Maybe not dollars, maybe a moral obligation, but they’d only give you something expecting a return
Most advanced countries will give you all of your formal education for free or with a heavily subsidized cost.
It usually don't create an obligation, or some kind of moral one. Managers have this joke (that for some reason they never think about) where they are deciding of they'll train their employees, and one asks "what if we train them and they leave?", so the other respond "what if we don't train them and they don't?". State payed education is just that, but at a society level, and for everything the society expects from people instead of just work.
Once they do, you’d owe them. Maybe not dollars, maybe a moral obligation, but they’d only give you something expecting a return
I disagree that all relationships between humans must be transactional, which is what you're implying here.
That’s the thing, I don’t mean between two humans. I mean between a human, and all the rest of society, which is why I phrased it that way.
Society gives a person an education, and expects that person to do something meaningful in return. It might not be the same two people in that transaction, which is similar to how we pay taxes for benefits we might not personally see.
I don't know that it's even conditional. I think we owe society something just anyway. If my neighbor's house is on fire, I should help how I can: contribute to putting out the fire (actually fighting the fire, calling someone who can), and I should help my neighbor deal with the aftermath (clothes and food and shelter and maybe assistance with paperwork, rebuilding, etc.).
So it's not transactional, but an underlying permanent obligation to other humans to at least do a baseline amount of good.
I like your point earlier. However, I think what you're missing is that not everything HAS to be transactional, and that humans can have value outside of what they offer society. Existential value is tragically overlooked.
If you and I are looking at a tree, you might see cubic board feet (I am picking on you here, because you selected the transactional view point earlier), while I would argue that the fact that the tree exists is enough and that if we reap benefits (beauty, oxygen, habitat value for other critters) from its continued existence, that's great! Let's plant more trees.
Again, abstract, but worth considering :)
So you don't have to be skilled as long as you're good looking.
I think there's something to that.
We have models after all.
Society gives a person an education
Does it?
People educate each other. In a capitalist society, that may be based upon relationships between strangers that are primarily motivated by money. But even within a very capitalist society, people have other motivations, and we learn a lot of things by observing other people do a thing. They don't necessarily have to be instructing us for us to get an education from them.
Yes, our current societal structure is largely transactional relationships between strangers for money. However, even within that society there are free educational programs and people willing to teach each other various skills just because they enjoy doing it.
Well I can't speak for you, but if I have the choice between the two, I'll take the brain surgeon that went to medical school over the one who learned brain surgery from the internet and people who like to perform surgery on brains for the sheer enjoyment of it.
Credentials are just a shortcut to trust in a stranger's abilities. Broadly speaking someone who jumped through all of the societal hoops may be more trustworthy, but like all heuristics and facsimiles it fails sometimes as well. There have been well-credentialed, seemingly qualified surgeons from prestigious institutions that wound up being some combination of evil and incompetent, and landed people in the hospital or the morgue because credentialism is not foolproof.
Relatedly, credentials are really what the institutions consistently provide -- not education -- and they are a large part of the reason people attend them in the first place.
You're mainly paying for a degree, not abilities and not an education.
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The circle of life?
That sounds like of like the circular water cycle, which means... ... the economy is therefore a liquid and trickle-down economics does in fact work.
If you are ever stuggling in life, you can always ~~shoplift~~ surprise civil asset forfeiture items from a corporate chain store. 😉
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