Community that celebrates inclusion wants to exclude
this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2024
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wasnt a gay man killed by a member of the force last year?
Do you mean the double-murder of Luke Davies and Jesse Baird? The alleged murderer in that case is gay himself, so it hasn't been interpreted as a hate crime, or indicative of homophobia in the police force, if that's what you mean.
News story on the case: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-24/sydney-luke-davies-jesse-baird-alleged-murder-police-hunt-bodies/103505602
I do yeah. I dont much care that the officer was gay, he still killed a gay man. regardless of interpersonal relationships or anything like that. If you were a member of the governing body of the Mardi Gras that would give you pause I imagine.
really getting shat off at this.
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no one is preventing individual gay cops from joining in. They don't want the police as an institution to use us as PR, especially since they're still failing the community
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IT IS NOT OUR JOB as a community to reach out, lean in, make space for people who are the reason Pride exists.
I'm not part of either community so from the view of an outsider...
Why wouldn't "you" (the people organising and participating in the march) not want police as part of it?
The Venn diagram of homophobic police and homosexual police are surely two distinct circles - why wouldn't you want the circle that's part of your team to be included? Are they not deserving of the same support the march is encouraging?
Why wouldn't "you" (the people organising and participating in the march) not want police as part of it?
Because some of those organising it where the ones that had the crap beaten out of them by police not so long ago. Perhaps as the years roll on things will change but right now I completely understand why.
My grandfather, who fought in WW2 in New Guinea lost his shit when my dad bought his first Japanese car (or so my dad told me decades ago) way back in the day, now, no one cares.
Because some of those organising it where the ones that had the crap beaten out of them by police not so long ago.
Right, and in all likelihood so were the current police who are now wanting to join the march.
They're allowed to join the march, just not as police.
The ban is for the police as an institution.
Pride in Protest has consistently campaigned for the exclusion of NSW Police from the parade citing a culture of homophobia within the force and an adversarial attitude towards unsolved gay hate deaths.
Far be it from me to have any say in this matter, but I don't believe the cops who want to march are the same cops exhibiting homophobia and disdain for gay hate deaths. I would think that encouraging more engagement with the community would do more good than excluding people.
"It's a bit hypocritical to ban them from marching if you're going to rely on them, as everybody does for major events, for security."
I think this is a fair point.
nah. I don't see them sooking for a float at moomba or the grand final parade.
Why would NSW police have anything do to with these Melbourne parades? 😃
I have never seen an AFL parade, I just assumed it was all about footballers. Are there floats and stuff about non AFL stuff?
In WA, there's a game each year connected somehow with WA Police. I've seen all the police recruiting banners and police community stalls around Optus stadium when I've attended games.
As to Moomba, have you forgotten Gentle Gendarme? The Victorian Police have a long history of being a part of the parade.
As I said: I have zero connection to the Sydney pride festival. So I have no strong opinion on what the organisers do/decide. But your response has highlighted the point I was making: I frequently see comments online that view police everywhere as one massive edifice all being the same thing. The replies that comment received follow that pattern. Police officers aren't all one thing any more than all [religion members / political party members / sports team members / coworkers / pick your analogy] are all one thing. By excluding the cops who are queer/allies because of the actions of some other cops, you essentially tell them they'll be tainted with that brush no matter what they do and they shouldn't bother trying to improve things from the inside because it'll never matter. I just think that's sad.
I have never seen an AFL parade, I just assumed it was all about footballers.
buddy, wait until you hear what Pride is about.....
No one's saying "people who are police officers can't march". That's a complete strawman.
People are complaining about the police marching as that edifice, that monolithic block. In full uniform as a group representing the force.
buddy, wait until you hear what Pride is about…
To be fair, I've never seen a pride parade, either. The photo highlights look like a blast, though.
No one’s saying “people who are police officers can’t march”. That’s a complete strawman.
But they are saying they can't march as police officers. How is that different to saying something like 'gay people can be in the military, but they can't be out'?
Being a cop isn't like being an IT worker. I go home, I'm off the clock. A cop is a cop everywhere they go. 'You can march, but you have to hide who you are' looks like a different sort of oppression to me.
Ok...
Pride isn't a big party. It literally started as a political protest against a socierty and system - including cops - that wanted us gone and wanted us dead.
Pride is a big fat fuck you. We are still here. We are still alive. Despite you.
Cops aren't being oppressed. And it's nothing like DADT - that comparisons is ridiculous to the point of actual offense. You can stop being a cop. You can't stop your sexuality.
Again: the objections are to the police force being represented at pride. Especially in NSW where they actively dropped, denied, buried and actively participated in hate crime murders.
Pride isn’t a big party. It literally started as a political protest against a socierty and system - including cops - that wanted us gone and wanted us dead.
I don't believe I've tried to tell anyone what Pride is? I've never seen it first-hand and I'd certainly never try to tell someone who is a part of that community what it is or isn't. I do think it could be a party and a form of protest at the same time, though. All the photos I've seen shared from Pride events from friends' feeds sure show a lot of people having a great time. So, it certainly looks like a party. Yes, police actions at the start of Pride are horrible. There's no defending any of that. Cops weren't a part of Pride in those years, though.
Cops aren’t being oppressed.
I think this de-humanises the queer cops. They're queer. They're cops. To say a queer person isn't being oppressed because they're a cop is like saying they're not being oppressed because they're white. Sure, but they're still being oppressed for being queer.
And it’s nothing like DADT - that comparisons is ridiculous to the point of actual offense. You can stop being a cop. You can’t stop your sexuality.
And a soldier can stop being a soldier. I don't think telling people they can be queer or a cop is fair for anyone. And it sounds to me like this is what's being called for. 'You can be in our community, but only if you hide the fact that you're also in that other community'. Imagine the reverse: If the NSW Police force told queer cops they couldn't be out, everyone would be outraged. Frankly, I don't see how this situation is any different.
Especially in NSW where they actively dropped, denied, buried and actively participated in hate crime murders.
I don't know a lot about the history of this - are we talking about the 70's and 80's? If so, I don't understand how the present generation are being blamed for those actions. Nobody on the force today was a cop in those years. If Pride is also a statement about present police actions, then surely you want to see people trying to change those actions? Wouldn't you want to encourage and support the cops trying to change attitudes from within? As I said, I think that by excluding them from the march, you're telling them that you'll hate them for being cops no matter what they do and they shouldn't even bother trying to bring change.
Eh. Ultimately I have no dog in this race and am not affected by any of this. I regret saying anything, as I'm clearly not going to change any minds on this. I am only speaking up on the topic because to an outsider, it looks like the Pride organisers are doing what they're accusing everyone else of doing: oppressing queer people.
I'm just going to say this:
You really have no idea what you're talking about, and i very much hope inadvertently have been really really offensive.
pride is a protest. it’s not a zoo - we aren’t here to be a spectacle, we aren’t here to be a tourist attraction for the state or federal governments
we are here to fight for our rights and equality - which we still don’t have, despite some of the white picket fence crowd trying to say that since we have marriage it’s over
police are the tool by which the majority oppresses the minority. as a symbol, police marching at mardi gras changes what it is - from a protest to an event - to a zoo for their amusement… their involvement is approval from the majority that what we’re doing is sanitised enough, is “ordinary” enough in their eyes
are there queer police? of course! can they be proud of themselves, and of their job? again, of course! but when they represent the police force, in uniform, they represent a group whose purpose is directly against the protest that is the whole point of the event
we are here to fight for our rights and equality - which we still don’t have
What rights don't you have?
Let's be reasonable, here. I don't understand why half the community wanted to exclude gay cops but I can absolutely see that queer people face oppression just for existing.
Yes, we have come a long way since the 1970s when Pride started. But hate of queer people hasn't gone away. It's up to everyone to recognize that and fight against it whenever loonies start to stir it up in our communities.
My examples are in Perth, because I'm in Perth. I'm sure this happens everywhere in Australia, though.
i’ll admit i don’t like the drag queen storytime, just doesn’t sit right with me
tbf i probably wouldn’t like tradie storytime or ceo storytime either, just seems…suspicious…but at the same time parents are more than welcome to just not go, not sure where the issue is
the teenagers attacking gays is just maddening, i wonder where they are getting it from
The point to it is is that many kids don't have any queer folk in their lives. Having a drag queen read to them gives an example of a drag queen in the world. That's really all there is to it.
Kids do not care. They just accept everything at face value. All they see is a nice friendly person reading a story. It is no different for them than a play school host reading a story.
I don’t believe the cops who want to march are the same cops exhibiting homophobia and disdain for gay hate deaths.
Sure, but if they're in uniform they're representing that institution as a whole. Marching in uniform, in formation, with guns, no less.
“It’s a bit hypocritical to ban them from marching if you’re going to rely on them, as everybody does for major events, for security.”
I think that's legally mandated. If there were any other option available I'm sure Pride In Protest would be pushing for that too.
Why?