this post was submitted on 27 Nov 2024
126 points (76.0% liked)

Technology

60058 readers
2807 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

"We have data on the performance of >50k engineers from 100s of companies. ~9.5% of software engineers do virtually nothing: Ghost Engineers.”

Last week, a tweet by Stanford researcher Yegor Denisov-Blanch went viral within Silicon Valley. “We have data on the performance of >50k engineers from 100s of companies,” he tweeted. “~9.5% of software engineers do virtually nothing: Ghost Engineers.”

Denisov-Blanch said that tech companies have given his research team access to their internal code repositories (their internal, private Githubs, for example) and, for the last two years, he and his team have been running an algorithm against individual employees’ code. He said that this automated code review shows that nearly 10 percent of employees at the companies analyzed do essentially nothing, and are handsomely compensated for it. There are not many details about how his team’s review algorithm works in a paper about it, but it says that it attempts to answer the same questions a human reviewer might have about any specific segment of code, such as:

  • “How difficult is the problem that this commit solves?
  • How many hours would it take you to just write the code in this commit assuming you could fully focus on this task?
  • How well structured is this source code relative to the previous commits? Quartile within this list
  • How maintainable is this commit?”

Ghost Engineers, as determined by his algorithm, perform at less than 10 percent of the median software engineer (as in, they are measured as being 10 times worse/less productive than the median worker).

Denisov-Blanch wrote that tens of thousands of software engineers could be laid off and that companies could save billions of dollars by doing so. “It is insane that ~9.5 percent of software engineers do almost nothing while collecting paychecks,” Denisov-Blanch tweeted. “This unfairly burdens teams, wastes company resources, blocks jobs for others, and limits humanity’s progress. It has to stop.”

The Stanford research has not yet been published in any form outside of a few graphs Denisov-Blanch shared on Twitter. It has not been peer reviewed. But the fact that this sort of analysis is being done at all shows how much tech companies have become focused on the idea of “overemployment,” where people work multiple full-time jobs without the knowledge of their employers and its focus on getting workers to return to the office. Alongside Denisov-Blanch’s project, there has been an incredible amount of investment in worker surveillance tools. (Whether a ~9.5 percent rate of workers not being effective is high is hard to say; it's unclear what percentage of workers overall are ineffective, or what other industry's numbers look like).

Over the weekend, a post on the r/sysadmin subreddit went viral both there and on the r/overemployed subreddit. In that post, a worker said they had just sat through a sales pitch from an unnamed workplace surveillance AI company that purports to give employees “red flags” if their desktop sits idle for “more than 30-60 seconds,” which means “no ‘meaningful’ mouse and keyboard movement,” attempts to create “productivity graph” based on computer behavior, and pits workers against each other based on the time it takes to complete specific tasks. 

What is becoming clear is that companies are becoming obsessed with catching employees who are underperforming or who are functionally doing nothing at all, and, in a job market that has become much tougher for software engineers, are feeling emboldened to deploy new surveillance tactics. 

“In the past, engineers wielded a lot of power at companies. If you lost your engineers or their trust or demotivated the team—companies were scared shitless by this possibility,” Denisov-Blanch told 404 Media in a phone interview. “Companies looked at having 10-15 percent of engineers being unproductive as the cost of doing business.”

Denisov-Blanch and his colleagues published a paper in September outlining an “algorithmic model” for doing code reviews that essentially assess software engineer worker productivity. The paper claims that their algorithmic code assessment model “can estimate coding and implementation time with a high degree of accuracy,” essentially suggesting that it can judge worker performance as well as a human code reviewer can, but much more quickly and cheaply. 

I asked Denisov-Blanch if he thought his algorithm was scooping up people whose work contributions might not be able to be judged by code commits and code analysis alone. He said that he believes the algorithm has controlled for that, and that companies have told him specific workers who should be excluded from analysis because their job responsibilities extend beyond just pushing code. 

“Companies are very interested when we find these people [the ghost engineers] and we run it by them and say ‘it looks like this person is not doing a lot, how does that fit in with their job responsibilities?’” Denisov-Blanch said. “They have to launch a low-key investigation and sometimes they tell us ‘they’re fine,’ and we can exclude them. Other times, they’re very surprised.”

He said that the algorithm they have developed attempts to analyze code quality in addition to simply analyzing the number of commits (or code pushes) an engineer has made, because number of commits is already a well-known performance metric that can easily be gamed by pushing meaningless updates or pushing then reverting updates over and over. “Some people write empty lines of code and do commits that are meaningless,” he said. “You would think this would be caught during the annual review process, but apparently it isn’t. We started this research because there was no good way to use data in a scalable way that’s transparent and objective around your software engineering team.”

Much has been written about the rise of “overemployment” during the pandemic, where workers take on multiple full-time remote jobs and manage to juggle them. Some people have realized that they can do a passable enough job at work in just a few hours a day or less. 

“I have friends who do this. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence of people doing this for years and getting away with it. Working two, three, four hours a day and now there’s return-to-office mandates and they have to have their butt in a seat in an office for eight hours a day or so,” he said. “That may be where a lot of the friction with the return-to-office movement comes from, this notion that ‘I can’t work two jobs.’ I have friends, I call them at 11 am on a Wednesday and they’re sleeping, literally. I’m like, ‘Whoa, don’t you work in big tech?’ But nobody checks, and they’ve been doing that for years.”

Denisov-Blanch said that, with massive tech layoffs over the last few years and a more difficult job market, it is no longer the case that software engineers can quit or get laid off and get a new job making the same or more money almost immediately. Meta and X have famously done huge rounds of layoffs to its staff, and Elon Musk famously claimed that X didn’t need those employees to keep the company running. When I asked Denisov-Blanch if his algorithm was being used by any companies in Silicon Valley to help inform layoffs, he said: “I can’t specifically comment on whether we were or were not involved in layoffs [at any company] because we’re under strict privacy agreements.”

The company signup page for the research project, however, tells companies that the “benefits of participation” in the project are “Use the results to support decision-making in your organization. Potentially reduce costs. Gain granular visibility into the output of your engineering processes.”

Denisov-Blanch said that he believes “very tactile workplace surveillance, things like looking at keystrokes—people are going to game them, and it creates a low trust environment and a toxic culture.” He said with his research he is “trying to not do surveillance,” but said that he imagines a future where engineers are judged more like salespeople, who get commission or laid off based on performance. 

“Software engineering could be more like this, as long as the thing you’re building is not just counting lines or keystrokes,” he said. “With LLMs and AI, you can make it more meritocratic.”

Denisov-Blanch said he could not name any companies that are part of the study but said that since he posted his thread, “it has really resonated with people,” and that many more companies have reached out to him to sign up within the last few days.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 weeks ago

It has not been peer reviewed.

I could make a paper in 5 minutes about how AI can be used to uniquely identify people by smelling their farts. Doesn't mean anything unless it's been peer reviewed.

Until this paper has been peer reviewed, I give it as much credit as I give a flat earth conspiracy person.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

We sell remote control radios to industry. I’ve spent a week talking a global customer about their issues. 1 bit is wrong in their data stream.

Typing more isn’t always doing more.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Yeah fr sometimes I need to sit on a problem for a week or talk with coworkers or other teams before a solution presents itself. Programming isn't just writing code, that's practically the last step.

Hell I spend most of my day just reading the old code and the docs just in case I find an opportunity to massively optimize things, and those have been some of my best projects.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

I spent most of my week poring over logs until I finally figured out what the issue was, then submitted a one-line commit to fix it. If my company used this bullshit, I'd be fired.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 weeks ago

I'm not even going to bother to take this seriously at all.

There's something to be said about unfulfilling and 'bullshit jobs'. Aside from the potentially dubious methodology here, consider the implications of this 'finding'.

How about look at the rentier and profit sapping features of these massive tech companies.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 weeks ago

many more companies have reached out to him to sign up within the last few days

They're looking for a semi-randomized layoff algorithm.

If this guy's anything but a con artist, he'd show the data that correlates his algorithm with observed performance ratings. And he'd also validate that applying his algorithm is consistent with labor law.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 3 weeks ago

I think most people misunderstand what software engineers do. Writing code is only a small portion of the work for most. Analyzing defects and performance issues, supporting production support that ends up with unqualified people due to the way support us handled these days, writing documentation or supporting those who do, design work, QE/QA/QC support, code reviews, product meetings, and tons of other stuff. That's why "AI" is not having any luck with just replacing even junior engineers, besides the fact that it just doesn't work.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

If people were gaming the performance monitoring systems to do less work, this is just another step in the cat and mouse game. They’ll figure out how to game this too.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Those numbers seem really sus. "We came up with some kind of ~~bullshit metric~~ magic algorithm and it turns out that if you look at people who score 10% of the average, that's about 10% of the people!!!"

Uh... yeah buddy sure is.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 weeks ago

And if the goal is to lay off 10% of your workforce, now you have a third-party metric to justify it.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 weeks ago

Exactly.

"Why didn't you make more commits last sprint?" Is such an idiotic take, that a friend of mine got a month or so ago.

He worked with another programmer and they comitted with his PC so... Didn't help, was still bashed for it because of "the numbers".

Sometimes they just need excuses to fire people too I guess.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 weeks ago

The legendary 0.1x engineer

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

LET'S LAY THEM OFF. If everyone is unemployed we can actually work on eating the rich

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

we can actually work on eating the rich

I've got a simple metric to measure performance on that job. Executable Heads of Billionaires, EHOBs.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Tbh sounds yet another "if we lived in another society this would be great" how much money is spent trying to measure, manage and control people doing the actual work?

Honestly though make an opensource version of this and run in it within the team, make the results public to the team and it's a great tool to motivate coworkers and make sure they are working without needing a manager (as often at least) to assign KPIs and get status reports.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I worked on a project that had at least 4x the amount of "management" people of various stripes talking about delivery dates and status as it did engineers. There was like 5 engineers on the project and 20ish people just talking bullshit and sitting in meetings.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 weeks ago

I’ve seen it first hand but I don’t know if 9.5% is the correct number. One software guy at my company works for 11 years at this company. He went through so much shit that at this point he doesn’t even sit under the software department anymore, he’s just under finance. All he does is upgrade GitLab once every quarter or so and then he just watches TV and messes around with his homelab in his free time. Comes to the office couple times a week for 3-4 hours to show everyone he is still alive then goes home.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

This is bullshit. There are many people hired with the job title "Software Engineer" who don't sit and generate code, and for a number of reasons.

You could be on a hybrid team that does projects and support, so you spend 80% of your time attending meetings, working tickets, working with users, and shuffling paper in whatever asinine change management process your company happens to use.

I have worked places where "engineers" ended up having to spend most of their time dicking around in ServiceNow/Remedy/etc. instead of doing their actual jobs. That's shitty business process design and shitty management, and not a reflection of the employee doing nothing.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 weeks ago

I spend most of my time in other time wasters like jira and fucking aha as well.

If I actually do anything, it only generates more work for me because I have to explain myself to fifteen different parties before making very minor, very necessary changes.

My company can't be the only one like this.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The old adage of the engineer paid to know where to tap an X comes to mind: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/06/tap/?amp=1

Frankly anyone telling you they can measure the value of a line of code without any background knowledge is selling BS.

But I welcome this new BS system as the previous system of managers not so secretly counting total commits and lines added was comically stupid.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

Frankly anyone telling you they can measure the value of a line of code without any background knowledge is selling BS.

the previous system of managers not so secretly counting total commits and lines added was comically stupid

That has been known not to work since the 1970s. There's probably something in The Mythical Man-Month ridiculing lines of code as a performance metric.

Some of the most productive work I ever did involved ripping out 80k lines of executable code and replacing it with 1500.

But I welcome this new BS system

I don't. Fuck snitchware in all its forms.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 weeks ago

You don't pay me for what I do, you pay me for what I know...

[–] [email protected] 37 points 3 weeks ago

What a fucking snitch. 9.5% of engineers gotta go, but the CEO getting paid buckets and buckets of money isn't draining the company? Fire 9.5% of engineers that actually have knowledge and are skilled enough to demand a high price for their skills, or CEO fuck-all who comes in via zoom once a quarter and couldn't open a pdf if they're life depended on it. Hmm, what a hard choice 🤔

[–] [email protected] 47 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

This guy is such a waste of carbon. Don't be fooled by his title as a "researcher" or him being in Stanford. He's just another Tech Bro, pushing his "product" to greedy companies to make a few bucks for himself.

And his sponsor? This guy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5932725/amp/Controversial-AI-detects-sexuality-IQ-used-spot-criminals-claims-inventor.html

Both deserve the deepest level of hell!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 weeks ago

Notice that the Daily Heil seems quite happy with such a tool.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Was this written by an AI? I'm legitimately asking.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 weeks ago

If you think it is, you don't know what an AI is.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 weeks ago

No. 404 media is written by people. I've personally been impressed by their reporting over the last year.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

How to scare managers into hiring me with my PoS black box software.

Step 1: make wild claims about wasted resources.

<- you are here

load more comments
view more: next ›