663
YSK about Darkpatterns.games, a website that rates mobile games on their "Dark patterns"
(www.darkpattern.games)
This is hands down great thanks for sharing!
this post was submitted on 25 Oct 2024
663 points (99.7% liked)
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This is such a good idea, I'm almost mad it wasn't made sooner!
grinding
glances at my 300 hours of OldSchool Runescape
You should try a healthier hobby, like heroin.
Only 300? XD
That game is nothing but grind after like 20 hours.
Reading the descriptions on the dark patterns and dark social patterns, That's actually the stuff I miss about world of Warcraft.
Invested / Endowed Value - Having already spent time and money to improve your status in the game, it's difficult to throw it away.
Isn't that every game? I can't think of a single game, back to old Atari 2600 or arcade games, that doesn't have this element. Many people are playing to see how far they can get, to beat the game.
I looked at their individual page (https://www.darkpattern.games/pattern/4/psychological-dark-patterns.html)...
If deleting the game and starting over from scratch sounds like a horrible idea and a waste of your investment, then the game has Endowed Value for you. The more time and money that you invest in the game, the more value it has over a fresh copy of the game.
So I guess they are referring to is something more transactional... for example, if I spent $100 on a gacha game or loot boxes to get a bunch of ultra-rare SSRs. I'd be pretty compelled to keep playing since I've already spent so much money on it.
They are not counting, for example, that I get hooked on some weird roguelike game because I genuinely want to get better at it but can stop any time. And if I lose my save file I would still happily start from scratch again (which, hilariously, a pattern named Infinite Treadmill is marked for both Slay the Spire and Balatro... https://www.darkpattern.games/pattern/14/infinite-treadmill.html)
I mean, games without memory didn't. Because once you turned off the game, it was all gone. This is more referring to if you have spent $200 on a game, and have like special event stuff in it, you'll struggle to give it up.
But again, this is all part of bigger pictures. If it has this + grinding + time lock things + micro transactions it's a problem. Games with just a couple of the features still have a high score of like 3+ and will be good games. Some of the things it asks about are only problems paired with other mechanics, while some categories are by themselves enough to be a problem.
Thanking for sharing OP. This is really good.
Someone shared it with me the other day and I fell in love so had to share!
It's kinda funny, I've become so turned off to these manipulations that the gamification of duolingo just annoys me more than it motivates me. The whole point is to learn a language. Power ups that let you extend the time to complete a timed exercise don't help with learning a language. Getting to the top of the leaderboard didn't make a difference either, especially if it was done using xp boosts.
At this point, I just hate that it forces me to spend time watching various meaningless bars fill up after each lesson.
I've even missed a couple of days, thinking "oh well, there goes my streak, which also doesn't really matter", only to find that they cared more about keeping that than I did and have automatic freezes. Though it wanted me to buy more after the last one, so I'm thinking the next time I miss a day it'll finally go back to 0.
Oh and yes, duolingo is a pay to win language learning game where you can give them money for boosts in the meaningless gamification shit. Even after buying a year subscription (that I don't plan on renewing).
They also completely skip any of the foundational stuff and jump right in to phrases that they don't explain. I'm a few months into Japanese lessons on there and it still hasn't even mentioned that it's been teaching the polite form and that other forms exist (which makes things confusing if you try to use other resources that generally use the neutral form).
It might be better for other languages that aren't so different from English, but I do not suggest duolingo if you want to learn Japanese.
Tbh I don't suggest learning Japanese at all if you aren't strong with languages and memorization. There's a couple thousand kanji symbols you need to learn for everyday communication, and each of those can be combined with others to form words that aren't always intuitive, and then those words can be strung together into sentences that also aren't intuitive to interpret.
Completely free lessons. No gamification. Really natural feeling learning method.
I mean, if you're into that sort of thing.
Yeah I did the Spanish for months and it was like "You're so high level!" but I realized as soon as I stepped back that I mostly had just gotten good at playing their games because they were formatted where the answers were generally obvious, to where I felt like just memorizing key words then trying to read children's books would have been more helpful.
So yeah they for sure use a dozen dark patterns. Making you feel like your account is valuable, making you feel bad for skipping, giving you bonuses for playing on their schedule, and making you feel better at the language than you are.
Lol Spanish is one language that I had assumed might actually work decently with that approach, but I can't say I'm surprised it doesn't.
And yeah, they do seem to design the exercises to be easy. Like translate a sentence to English, but they only give one verb option, or sometimes they don't even provide any options that aren't a part of the sentence and it becomes "can you string these English words together to form a valid sentence with hints in the language you are learning?"
I'm using another app specific to Japanese that at least has grouped the answers in ways that make it harder but more effective because I need to tell the difference between similar looking kanji. It's frustrating, but at least the frustration comes from being annoyed at my own pace rather than from getting a false sense that I'm doing very well only to realize I barely know anything without multiple choice hints.
I'm sure it worked for some people, but for me my brain just picked up the super obvious patterns before picking up much spanish.
It is possible, though I think it's one of those products whose success is based more on customer testimonials than actual statistics about it's effectiveness.
They might exist, but I haven't met anyone who has said they were able to use duolingo to become fluent or even competent in a language.
But then again, my German learned from a class in high school isn't much better. Hell, my French leaned from being in French immersion all through elementary school followed by normal French classes in high school isn't even at a competent level, though I can at least communicate a bit in French. I can still see those subject-verb conjugation tables though lol (though I've lost the French version of "them/they").
Literally just found out yesterday my wife has been spending on average 100$ a month on one of these games yesterday, thanks for the helpful site.
Now I guess I get to figure out how to have conversations with her that I never thought I'd have to have.
Oh no! That's so annoying, maybe can help her quit by finding a better version of the game.
Like stupid match 3/candy crush trash has a million free clones.
Thanks for the advice. I'm honestly trying to wrap my head around the appeal or what it does for her. The app is called Gold and Goblins, and it's an idle game. I've never understood idle games as a genre but I want to try to come from an understanding place. I'm a PC gamer myself (factorio currently) and I'm used to paying once for a game and being able to play forever.
I mean I have my own problems as well, my addictions are caffeine and nicotine. So I'm definitely not a saint. But it's hard to talk to her about it when she pulls the whataboutism on my vices. I get it, my stuff is wasted money as well. I just don't really see it as the same thing, Noone is compelling me with a time limited event or something to get me to smoke more.
Edit: I'm also actively quitting both my vices, while hers are getting worse. I just worry so much about how it's affecting her and her mental health.
I've played Gold and Goblins, it's a typical idle skinner box; these companies hire the same people casinos do, to design their games to be addictive. It is a gambling addiction, same as if it were actual slot machines
Obviously I don't know what your finances are like, but is it possible she's just enjoying herself and considers it a hobby? Comparing it to other games, $100/month can seem ridiculous, but comparing it to other hobbies, it might not be that bad.
I used to be unwilling to spend any amount on a mobile game until I thought about how much I used to spend playing Magic: the Gathering. Sometimes hobbies cost money.
I have multiple hobbies and or vices that each cost about that much per month…so
Do you have a "vices" budget? Maybe that's one approach. You both get $100 or whatever and she blows hers on mobile games, while you're cutting back and have money for other things.
This is a good idea to keep everyone accountable
Oof yeah I sometimes get drawn into idle games. It's weird to be pulled into those, because just the constant feeling of accomplishing something short circuits my brain, combined with "Oh I should check in on my game once a day, or I'm not accomplishing things". Usually once I stop playing for a few days I go "oh, why did I care?" But it feels real bad in the mean time.
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