this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024
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As the title states I am confused on this matter. The way I see it, the USA has a two party system and in the next few weeks they’re either going to have Trump or Harris as president, come inauguration day. With this in mind doesn’t it make sense to vote for the person least likely to escalate the situation even more.

Giving your vote to an independent or worse not voting at all, just gives more of a chance for Trump to win the election and then who knows what crazy stuff he will allow, or encourage, Israel to get away with.

I really don’t get the logic. As sure nobody wants to vote for a party allowing these heinous crimes to be committed, but given you’re getting one of them shouldn’t you be voting for the one that will be the least horrible of the two.

Please don’t come at me with pro-Israeli rhetoric as this isn’t the post for that, I’m asking about why people would make such choices and I’m not up for debate on the Middle East, on this post, you can DM me for that.

Edit: Bedtime here now so will respond to incoming comments in the morning, love starting the day with an inbox full 😊.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 7 hours ago

There are many contributing factors. Part of it is russian and american oligarchs spending heaps of cash to amplify any and every message that could help trump win.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 hours ago (4 children)

Some people think the trolley problem is just a funny template.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 hours ago (4 children)

As per the Mueller report: Russian trolling doesnt just affect the GOP.

And now we know that India, China and Iran(at absolute minimum) have their own efforts to that effect too. Israel has had the AIPAC for decades, so theyre guilty of it too.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists everywhere.

AIPAC is doing what is actually effective: lobbying (AKA bribing) politicians.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

So are the Saudis.

But to deny that the known efforts of the Russians to fuck with the GOP and at least one known instance of them fucking with BLM is foolish. Go to the Canada subreddit on any news related to India and its full of atrocious asfroturf.

Russia and Trump proved it effective, now everyone is doing it.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Russia and Trump proved it effective, now everyone is doing it.

It did not in fact prove that.

.
And should Harris lose this election, the Democrats will again look anywhere but in the mirror for the reasons.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 hours ago

Obama dropped an average of 60 bombs every day on the middle east and north africa during his presidency.

The US isn't a democracy, and it's elections are nothing but theatre. I recommend asking about this on lemmygrad or hexbear also.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (3 children)

Your vote is your consent.

Imagine for a minute that your perfect political candidate was running. The only catch is that if they win they are promising to personally execute your family in front of you. The other guy is gonna kill your family too so everyone tells you to stop being such a single issue voter and vote for the lesser evil.

Do you still vote for them? Or do you refuse to participate in the execution of your family?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 7 hours ago (3 children)

Yeah! If you don't vote, nobody becomes president!

The system marches on with or without your input.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 7 hours ago (12 children)

Your vote is not your consent; that's some nonsense made up to get people to not vote.

In your metaphor, you vote for one your family dies, you vote for another your family and another family dies. You refuse to participate in the system and both families die.

You didn't consent to that, but you allowed it to happen via your vote of INDIFFERENCE which is what not voting means. It means you don't care which way things go, because that's all it can mean to not make a choice.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

Does refusing to vote stop your family from being executed?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Probably not. But it doesn’t include your consent at the very least.

Maybe you’re a perfectly objective person who can still vote for your families execution. But I think most people would struggle with it, if they’re being truly honest with themselves.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 hours ago (3 children)

It boils down to if you think any admin will ever change how the US deals with Israel. And if that's true, then how does change happen? Maybe if the rest of the world pushes against the US? Other countries are having their own struggle with any change suggested being labeled as a convenient antisemitism. This is a huge US problem, but not JUST a US problem. And I know OP didn't want to get into the politics of it, but it's hard to avoid when that's exactly what it is, politics while people die and other people try to object and question it but get stomped down for doing so.

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (7 children)

Majority of the people who are saying this are Arab-Americans. They know how bad Trump will be, they voted overwhelmingly in favor of Biden back in 2020. Unfortunately, after a year of witnessing their entire ethnicity being written off as an acceptable casualty in the name of international diplomacy and foreign lobbying, they've become numb and just stopped caring. There have been repeated instsnces of Democrats actually silencing them from speaking up as well. They've adopted a scorched earth mentality and are deciding to send a giant "fuck you" to Harris and the entire Democratic party.

And the Democrats are also allowing Israel to do whatever they want. There's not much of a difference between the two on this topic.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago) (1 children)

Supporting someone currently committing genocide is an explicitly pro genocide stance.

I pray that you and your family are someday accorded the same mercy as you have for Gazans.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 hours ago (25 children)

I'm sure if Trump wins it will be of great comfort to the millions more Palestinians dying in the genocide that their deaths will be useful to your smug sense of superiority.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

This isnt the first time the whole lesser of two evil bs has been done in an American election. It happens everytime. Biden said hey i may suck but atleast i wont put immigrant kids in cages! Then he kept the kids in cages and now democrats run on mass deportation policies 4 years later. Trump might say worse things but the actual effects of him being in office wont really be different then if Harris wins. If anything Harris winning will show them that being pro-genocide worked and theyll be pro even more genocide going forward.

Its just not an accurate assessment to say "Well Harris is slightly better so shouldnt the choice for her be obvious?" Because she isnt better. She just puts a better face on the exact same genocidal policies. The only difference is that Trump doesnt pretend like he feels bad about it when gazan children are slaughtered and openly admits he is a maniac. Biden publically tells Israel dont do this thing then they do it anyway and the media plays it off like Biden is just incompetent and cant stop it. But the reality is its all fake. Hes saying not to do it publically then privately green lighting whatever they want to do. They arent going against him at all hes just putting on an act for people like you. Its what the entire "International Law" that applies to the enemies of the US Empire but never applies to the US or its allies has always been. An act put on by liberals to pretend they arent evil so people who have empathy will still buy in to the system.

There is no such thing as Democracy in the US. As someone more clever than me once said:

"America only has 1 political party but in classic American opulence they have 2 of them."

The only reason America has election is to give the illusion of consent to the governance of their population. The whole "We the People" thing is nonsense and not real. Its a Myth just like the American Dream is a Myth. Work hard and youll make it! Its all bullshit and it always has been. Vote, dont vote, it doesnt matter. The Empire will still demand blood.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (2 children)

This isnt the first time the whole lesser of two evil bs has been done in an American election. It happens everytime.

Every election that I can remember, and I can remember as far back as Carter vs Reagan.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (3 children)

Because why would a pro-Palestine person vote for the person who has aided the genocide against them and continues to vow further support for the regime responsible?

The way I see it, the USA has a two party system and in the next few weeks they’re either going to have Trump or Harris as president, come inauguration day. With this in mind doesn’t it make sense to vote for the person least likely to escalate the situation even more.

How is Kamala less likely to escalate it further when she has supported the actual ongoing genocide? What will Trump escalate it to? Double genocide? Either way I'm not voting for Trump so I don't have to agree with his policies. I'm just not going to let the Dems conduct Genocide and scare me into agreeance with them using the threat of Trump.

If you're talking about escalation with Iran, we have already been working with Israel for a "response" to Iran response and she has again supported Israels right to continue their provocations in the name of "defense".

Giving your vote to an independent or worse not voting at all, just gives more of a chance for Trump to win the election and then who knows what crazy stuff he will allow, or encourage, Israel to get away with.

Crazy stuff like genocide? Expanding the "war" in Gaza into Lebanon? Provoking Iran with a strike on their soil then planning "retaliation" for their retaliation?

As sure nobody wants to vote for a party allowing these heinous crimes to be committed, but given you’re getting one of them shouldn’t you be voting for the one that will be the least horrible of the two.

Kamala is actively engaged in a genocide. There should be punishments for this. The least of which should be losing your role in any sort of elected office. A vote for Kamala is literally a vote saying that you are okay with genocide as long as it benefits you to do so.

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[–] [email protected] 82 points 8 hours ago (26 children)

Remember that in online spaces (and IRL in reality), there are astro-turf/sock puppet accounts that will make claims to sway public opinions.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 hours ago (6 children)

There are, but not on Lemmy, because Lemmy is still much too small to bother with.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 8 hours ago (3 children)

Good point. Although, I would question whether Lemmy is such a place as we really don’t have the numbers to warrant the effort, imo.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 hours ago (4 children)

I disagree - it feels like Lemmy is seeing the same kind of shills that 4chan saw in the last several elections. These bad actors are trying to sway dems to vote third party or not vote at all "in protest" across many small and large online spaces.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

We get drug spam and stock spam, no reason to expect that political spam is any less likely.

Lemmy has a huge amount of hardcore lefty's. If you can get them to not vote, and especially if you can get them to tell their friends not to vote, that is a big win.

Astroturfing/sockpuppeting is dirty cheap to do, so no reason not to try.

You do see some users here that will post continously on about a certain topic repeatedly, with no other opinions. They might be legit, but I have my suspicions.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 hours ago (4 children)

In my situation, I'm in a solid blue state so I'm voting for a third party to push the country to the left.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

This kinda makes sense, I guess that means not a swing state (I’m not American).

Do you have to be in a heavy blue state to do this without fear that if enough people do this it will swing red?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 7 hours ago

Yeah it's a strategy that would work in any heavy red or blue state, because there's an absolute zero percent chance the dems lose my state.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

Yes, exactly. If you live in a solid blue or red state, your vote is a drop in the bucket, so it won't matter if you vote third party. But in swing states like Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania.... in 2016, the number of votes won by Jill Stein was slightly greater than the difference between Trump/Clinton. Ouch! Was it worth it? Did it move the country left?

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

If only USA had ranked choice voting, then everyone could do that.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Or literally any voting system with more than two seconds thought put into it

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

The vote should be for someone who can get enough electoral college votes to win in the first place, and from there the one who is more likely to listen to public pressure, as well as the same for any congressional seats on the ballot. And probably not vote for the one who is threatening to send the military after those who disagree with them.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

Which as a non-American seems to be Harris, right?

[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 hours ago

For a vote, yes. I can't even imagine what Trump would do with the situation given another chance. Some may say the same thing as the US has always done, which is one of the problems that will need to be addressed regardless of who wins, but Trump also likes dictators, so support would probably be bumped up even more for Netanyahu.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

Yes, Harris is the only realistic option. Anyone voting for Trump is a Nazi in the most literal sense of the word.

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