this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2025
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Showerthoughts

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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. The most popular seem to be lighthearted clever little truths, hidden in daily life.

Here are some examples to inspire your own showerthoughts:

Rules

  1. All posts must be showerthoughts
  2. The entire showerthought must be in the title
  3. No politics
    • If your topic is in a grey area, please phrase it to emphasize the fascinating aspects, not the dramatic aspects. You can do this by avoiding overly politicized terms such as "capitalism" and "communism". If you must make comparisons, you can say something is different without saying something is better/worse.
    • A good place for politics is c/politicaldiscussion
  4. Posts must be original/unique
  5. Adhere to Lemmy's Code of Conduct and the TOS

If you made it this far, showerthoughts is accepting new mods. This community is generally tame so its not a lot of work, but having a few more mods would help reports get addressed a little sooner.

Whats it like to be a mod? Reports just show up as messages in your Lemmy inbox, and if a different mod has already addressed the report, the message goes away and you never worry about it.

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[–] [email protected] -2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I feel a lot of the people disagreeing here are making assumptions about your beliefs, missing the point, and then simply refuting you to refute you without providing explaination. I think this is a fair and interesting premise. I disagree with it and will ecplain why, though do note I am not invested enough to specifically look anything up so if I say something inaccurate, please evaluate if the logic falls apart or not.

I think the first part of your main justifications has been hard to refute. Most, if not all societies we have known have had religion or spirituality. However, I think your following conclusion, "those societies must have then used morality based on those religions", is where the flaw is. I think most societies had religion as a form of a "God of the gaps" and used it to explain phenomena they couldn't. I would say that is the main reason they did have it. However, that doesn't yet mean they didn't use it for morality. To see that, I'd ask you to look at Greek and Roman mythology, or as known to them, religion. Now I believe, Zeus turning into a swan and doing Zeus things doesn't have a moral (or not a useful one, it's mainly that Zeus is an asshole).. Likewise, Aphrodite turning Arachne into a spider didn't really inform some Greek moral of don't be too pretty, just showed Aphrodite is, for lack of a better word, a fucking jealous bitch. Let's similarly look at Norse mythology. Loki makes Fenrir and tries to kill other gods and generally does shenanigans. There's not really a moral attached to that, he kinda just does shit cus he's a hit of a dick.

My main point here is that while these religions existed, they did so to explain phenomena or were then essentially fanfic extensions of the reasons/personifications of those phenomena, and often were not the basis for morality of a culture (but very well likely were themselves molded by a cultures morality in a reversal of causation). Because Greece, Roman, and Norse cultures were more secular, they could therefore have stories without morals that just had assholery abound. Because the time around the formation of the Christian church was more tyrannical (now I'm guessing), the bible had much more heavy handed morals (ten commandments, 7 deadly sins etc).

I hope that was a better argument for disagreement. And, I don't think your premise was as outlandish as so many others are making it out to be, despite my disagreement.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I sincerely do not think you understand my point if you are only willing to think as far back as Classical Greece, while also demonstrating a pretty ignorant understanding of Greek, Roman, or Norse culture. I would highly recommend reading up on the history of all those people before trying to use their belief structures in argument.

My point is 100% of all documented groups of people had spirituality and religious practices in their history, and a unified idea of "morality" cannot exist without those precursors.

You are operating under the impression that humans 10,000 years ago had access to even a fraction of the education and time to reflect and think you have.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

I'm not sure if I understand the statement properly, but I appreciate the challenge here. Why precursor?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 days ago (1 children)

My argument is that a "unified morality" can only be the result of a Spiritual or Religious belief structure due to the subjective nature of morality, the need for it to be easily communicated and enforced, and the need for a "bigger than me" idea to connect the species to in order to follow.

I support this by the fact that the evidence we have of Human civilization, and precivilization humans, demonstrates a spiritual belief structure in all documented groups.

This is not to say that morality in the modern age requires either Spirituality or Religion, because it doesn't due to the thousands of years of "debate", but that the formation of these things were necessary to bring our species together into larger groups because there is no inherent moral code in humans, and we are simply animals who need to be taught everything to survive by our elders and peers.

I do not believe in a "God" and I am not arguing that one is required for morality to exist, but I am saying that spirituality is the precursor to the idea of "morality" and required for "morality" to form in the first place.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Wow, thanks for your thorough clarification!

I do agree somewhat, or at least to the extent that without spirituality the morality concept is weak. Things like compassion and altruism don't necessarily need spirituality to exist, yet offer vague subjective guidelines for morality.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (2 children)

No problem!

I don't believe we don't have a compassion and altruism towards other members of our species. We most certainly aren't the only species with those traits either, which is amazing and they do not need spirituality to exist. Those are "premoral behaviors", as described in other animals, and that to me assumes they cannot be "morality" if we aren't willing to call other animals "moral" who present them.

The problem with those traits is they must still be nurtured and taught, and we can barely get 2 people to agree on how to raise a child let alone a whole community or country, which is why I believe the solution was forming a morality through spirituality using those basic traits as a starting point.

I just don't calls those traits "morality", but they are what make us capable of being "moral" or defining what is "moral". I honestly laugh at the idea of "Cause rock say" was likely the easiest thing to communicate for early humans to explain why you shouldn't do something before we had super advance language, and it snowballed from there. haha

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

I would argue that morality came before religion or spirituality, and therefore does not require either of them to exist.

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