this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2025

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1044

Patriotism vs Nationalism (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 week ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 6 days ago

Both are tribalism of different levels of intensity. Our brains are predisposed for us-them mentality, some stronger than others, some can leave it behind others never will. It's also the most exploitable feeling in the history of our species, with fear may be the close contender.

Obviously a government embracing tribalism leads to horrid shit (everyone without an armband knows it) BUT ignoring it completely allows something else snake its way into that void. If you're lucky its something vegetarian like football hooliganism, if you-re not -- pan-nationalism, religious zealotry, whatever the 4chan incel shit is, people who can't or won't leave tribal mentality will find a dirt to roll in.

IMHO it is worth considering implementing a civic religion a-la french republicanism. Yes it can be a gateway to nationalism, but it also lets tribal minded people wave their flags and "guard the civic values" or whatever while the rest of us continue our lives in peace. As a bonus it improves civic participation and if you're attacked -- well there's already something for you to rally around.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 6 days ago (15 children)

Patriotism is great because patriotism is about loving what a country stands for.

America no longer stands for freedom and justice for all. But anyone who loved those ideas before can still stand for them now.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That's how it starts, but it ends in the same hell. Once you decide your country stands for something, you inevitably stop seeing how it has failed at doing that thing for centuries.

For example, consider freedom and equality. The US had widespread slavery until the late 1800s, and even now the prison industrial slavery complex provides 100% slave labor, and most of the slaves are minorities. So when people talk about freedom and equality as a U.S. value, when they talk about the melting point, they have to pretend the slaves don't exist.

Another way of looking at it is, "You might say your country stands for this ideal, but when we find massive examples of it failing, then you're arguing with reality. You might wish your country stood for it, but it doesn't, at least not now. Quit lying to yourself."

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 days ago

That’s how it starts, but it ends in the same hell. Once you decide your country stands for something, you inevitably stop seeing how it has failed at doing that thing for centuries.

This is a non-sequitur. There's nothing stopping someone from seeing what a country stands for and how it has failed to live up to those ideals. People can in fact walk and talk.

...So when people talk about freedom and equality as a U.S. value, when they talk about the melting point, they have to pretend the slaves don’t exist.

No one has to ignore our history or pretend the prison industrial complex doesn't exist to understand that we stood for equality. In fact, it's the other way around. It's the people who ignore and even rewrite our history who fail to understand America is a melting pot.

Another way of looking at it is, “You might say your country stands for this ideal, but when we find massive examples of it failing, then you’re arguing with reality. You might wish your country stood for it, but it doesn’t, at least not now. Quit lying to yourself.”

Except there are massive examples of it succeeding. The US ended slavery and gave voting rights to women. So it is your argument arguing with reality.

When we lose sight of the fact our country stood for something we end up in a nationalist christo-fascist dictatorship. Championing freedom and justice for all is how we stave off the division employed by fascists.

Pretending the US didn't stand for anything is an agreement with the fascists. They believe America has always been a white christian nation state and now it is one. Your argument is agreeing with their lie. The only way to defeat the fascists is to believe in the truth.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Patriotism is loving your country and wanting it to prosper. Nationalism is believing your country is superior to other countries and seeing all others as adversaries.

It's the difference between working on self-improvement because you care about yourself vs. wanting to take things from others and being paranoid about them taking from you.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

That's a nice idea, and if you can maintain that distinction good for you, but the inevitable widespread consequence of loving one's country more is that one loves other countries less. And that leads to xenophobia, which in turn leads to racism.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 6 days ago

Nobody should be patriotic with the genocidal settler colony that is the USA.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 1 week ago

fuck either of them.

no loyalty to any state.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 week ago

Patriotism isn't a good thing at all.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Office meme, they're the same picture. The world no longer needs people who are willing to die for, or equally kill for, their country

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Yes, but climate change, water wars and possibly a fundamental change to world order are likely. One might not get a choice, if they prefer to continue living in freedom and peace.

Doesn't mean we need patriots though.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 6 days ago

Yes if you can convince everyone in the world of this simultaneously, we'll end all wars.

Do you think Vladimir Putin will agree with your sentiment?

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 week ago

Every "nationalist" believes themselves a "patriot".

All this image does is allow you to self-soothe that you're "one of the good ones".

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago

Brazilian "patriots" bow to USA demands, so they're also dumb

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Both are stupid, especially if you live in the USA, where your government will let you be rendered homeless and dead in the street if you can't pay enough money into the capitalist machine.

What's to be proud of?

[–] [email protected] -5 points 1 week ago (9 children)

National parks, innovation, highest level of freedom of speech (not anymore, lol, but ya know). Actually admitting to our racism and bigotry instead of pretending it doesn't exist like European countries do, and instead trying to tackle the issues. Even if failing. A diverse population.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Patriotism is being a Simp for a State that doesn't give a fuck about you.

National Parks

Stolen indigenous land?

innovation

So... Unless you can define what this means, I have to assume it involves Chinese manufacturing.

freedom of speech

Unless you're on the actual Left that Democrats want to suppress and Republicans want to execute.

actually admitting our racism and bigotry [ . . . ] even if failing

Yeah... Uh... Im going to have to disagree - I see empty gestures made out of a fetish for decorum, which is a holdover from an even older Conservatism. That's several history doctorates of a rabbit hole to unpack.

a diverse population

Finally, something good! I can get there with "love your neighbor" instead. No State-simping necessary

[–] [email protected] -4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

In a democracy, the state is not a formless, uninfluenced entity. It's the way it is because the people are horrible. The state cares as much as any human in it cares for you. So no, don't love thy neighbor, they're the cause of this lol. Diversity is strength and great food but don't mistake that with it meaning they are necessarily good people worthy of love

Unless you're on the actual Left that Democrats want to suppress and Republicans want to execute.

"Want to" is not when your freedom of speech ends man. No, the dems are not taking away your freedom of speech

Yeah... Uh... Im going to have to disagree - I see empty gestures made out of a fetish for decorum, which is a holdover from an even older Conservatism.

I live in an area that is putting actual money into balancing the scales but yeah sure it's just a empty words ~~~

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

In a democracy, the state is not a formless, uninfluenced entity. It's the way it is because the people are horrible.

No deference to the systems we grow up in? No ability to understand context?

The US is not a Democracy.

Congrats. We're all shit. All of us. You and me too. GO TO THERAPY.

Want to" is not when your freedom of speech ends man. No, the dems are not taking away your freedom of speech

I didn't realize all I had to do was "talk" to have my material needs met. To have my ideas as part of the political conversation.

Wait, I do that, to people, face to face. We still have ghost jobs polluting our employment statistics, and blackshirts on the streets abducting neighbors.

I live in an area that is putting actual money into balancing the scales but yeah sure it's just a empty words ~

Congrats. How did you get there? I need you to understand that is a privilege not all of us have. And without further detail, I'm curious about how many of your neighbors face a different reality.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 6 days ago (2 children)

The US is not a Democracy

Technically correct in that it's a Republic. Same thing applies

No deference to the systems we grow up in? No ability to understand context?

People who can soley understand the system they grew up and not improve it are the issue, yes

I didn't realize all I had to do was "talk" to have my material needs met. To have my ideas as part of the political conversation.

Freedom of speech is quite literally about immaterial needs, not material ones. There is no right or reason to have a right to include all views in politics.

How did you get there? I need you to understand that is a privilege not all of us have.

By voting? People voted to spend government money to even harms done in the past. That's not privilege; that's a choice made when voting. Not sure what you mean by neighbors having a different reality, my neighbors are getting bettered by good governance because we voted for good politicians