this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2024
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Fuck Cars

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Ever since ditching car culture and joining the urbanist cause (on the internet at least but that has to change), I've noticed that some countries always top the list when it comes to good urbanism. The first and most oblivious one tends to be The Netherlands but Germany and Japan also come pretty close. But that's strange considering that both countries have huge car industries. Germany is (arguably) the birthplace of the car (Benz Patent-Motorwagen) and is home to Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Japan is home to Toyota, Honda, Nissan and among others. How is it that these countries have been able to keep the auto lobby at bay and continue investing in their infrastructure?

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

I reckon being bombed to oblivion during World War 2 gave opportunity for re-designing their cities.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (7 children)

Germany should not be in the same conversation as Japan when it comes to urban planning. Germany is very much car centric and most German cities are hideous.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Well they basically started again in the late 40s…

Prior to that, Hitler saw the rise of the car and made Volkswagen and the Autobahn.

When you purposely build for pedestrianisation as well as motor vehicles, you get good results. Japan and Germany and majority of other nations didn’t sacrifice one for the other but built them up holistically together.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

...they export the horrible machines?

[–] [email protected] 65 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Lol, have you been to Germany? It’s not a concrete hellscape like some of the US, but it’s very car centric if you compare it to e.g. Denmark or Netherlands.

Edit: also, German car lobby is powerful, that’s why their highways are free to use and constantly maintained and kept at a high quality. Trains on the other hand are constantly being delayed and have to slow down due to bad rail quality

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

German asphalt sucks though, compared to Dutch asphalt

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Just use Belgium as the baseline, then everyone in Europe has great asphalt

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

It's due to different reasons, but very little to do with car manufacturing.

Cities in Europe are blessed and cursed with being established long before cars. This makes it expensive to expand the roads, and it is also difficult to increase the size of cities outwards, because there's not a lot of available land anywhere. So when populations increases, it makes sense to make public transport better, because it's the cheaper and only option.

It's not all good though. Only the largest cities have good public transport. Smaller towns are increasing outwards because rural land is cheaper. Parking is limited or costly in the centres, so people drive out of the town for shopping where parking is free and easy. This kills the businesses in small town centres despite their population growth. A large group of the population living outside the capitals is currently getting more and more car dependent, not by choice, but by necessity.

Japan is different. They simply planned ahead and invested heavily in public transport in the years after the war, 1947-1987 before their population grew. They literally built railroads and the Tokyo metro before it was needed. With huge success. The cities grew with the public transport.

Another historical difference is that while both European and Japanese public transport started as government projects and both have since been privatized, the fragmentation in European states and municipalities have made it difficult to do in a profitable way. It's usually government subsidized, and therefore still depending on local political will to budget for it, while the larger Japanese railway companies are (somewhat) less dependent on local political budgets. In short: JR rail can more easily add another departure if they think it makes sense, whereas a European railroad company would need to know how much the government is willing to pay for having more departures etc.

I do have hopes that Europe will catch up again, because the long term environmental pledges are pushing politicians in the right direction. It's no longer enough to only consider the cost and corporate interests. The people want less pollution and traffic and vote accordingly.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

"Japan" doesn't necessarily have great urban planning; some Japanese cities have it. It also is somewhat getting worse in the countryside due to depopulation out here. I ended up having to buy a car where I live now (though it is a 660cc kei car) in part because I do some farming and need to buy bigger things, but also because cycling to the supermarket/drugstore/train station (all in the same place) would involve crossing some busy roads where people are speeding constantly. When it's just me, I take my motorcycle, but often it's both the wife and I. It's not all Tokyo, Osaka, etc. Even Nagoya, one of the biggest cities, is super car-centric.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The Shinkansen is absolutely great and I love traveling in Japan by train, much better experience overall than Germany. That said, there are still so many things that are oddly outdated. Like, why is there no app to book tickets? Even when booking online, physical tickets are still needed and have to be collected at the train station.

Now with the typhoon a lot of connections were cancelled. Hundreds of people had to go to physical counters to exchange their physical tickets to cash. Because there's an emergency schedule on some lines, the ticket machines don't work and customers have to go to counters to get tickets. Even Germany is more digitized than that. Granted, Germany has a lot more experience with cancelled train connections...

It's like, Japan was ahead of everyone else and just stopped there. Still a great experience but it could be so much better with relatively little effort.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

You can book through the JR app (EkiNet, though it is kinda shit), IIRC. Definitely through their website. I don't believe you need a physical ticket anymore, either, if your phone functions as your IC card (I'm not sure about actual IC cards, but I assume it's the same). I do end up getting physical tickets most of the time because my local train gets shut down somewhat regularly and doesn't run for hours at a time making it hard to know when to book in advance.

That said, we definitely need to do better at digitalization here in Japan. Even what is there for the government is pretty limited and, when it works, has an abysmal UX.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 2 months ago (3 children)

As others have said, Germany is not as bad as the US (at least as far as I can tell looking at the US from the outside), but it's still fucking terrible and will likely get worse under future governments, which are all but guaranteed to be right-wing, quite possibly including the outright fascists of the AfD.

Public transport is useless, especially the train network, which is horribly outdated technically and has been gutted by quasi-privatisation. Trains are frequently late or cancelled (which counts as on time for German Rail's statistics). If you don't live in a city you basically have to own a car because of this, especially in smaller towns where there might only be like two busses a day (or none at all). There are some small improvements being made in cities, but they are hugely lacking and slow. They will also likely not survive future governments, which are promising car-centric policies and trying to import the anti-cyclist culture war from the US.

So yeah, it's bleak and the future looks even bleaker. With how things are going politically at the moment urbanism will be the least of our worries though.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

I don't quite share your sentiment. Although FDP tends to yap a lot about car infrastructure, investments into train infrastructure in Germany are at a record high. Still far too low, I agree, but it's not getting worse. And I don't see AfD joining any government on national level anytime soon. Also, cycling infrastructure is more a local topic and most cities are still center-left. Outside of cities I don't see biking infrastructure improving either, though.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Bleak, bleaker, the bleakest.

It certainly seems to me like the majority of people (in cities) welcomes less cars and more pedestrian / bicycle infrastructure. At least if the removal of street parking happens NIMBY. Certainly cities are pushing for this, throughout all the parties, maybe not the afd and the fdp when they tried to scratch 5% of voters from the bottom of the barrel in the east with their "more cars into the cities, less pedestrians and cyclists". Even the adac (huge german car interest group) thought this was a stupid idea.

The news and readers comments in local newspaper were way more cycle infra critical some years ago. I think german cities are moving in the right direction, it is getting better, although slowly, i don't share your pessimism.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I always thought Germany had a solid public transport system (I've been there like 1 time maybe), but as you are describing it it sounds awfully similar to Italy.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

I suppose the perspective is relative. Frequent cancellations of trains is bad, but not as bad as no PT at all, as is all too common in US.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago (1 children)

"The auto lobby at bay" sounds weird in the ears of a German whose city is being flooded with cars and whose life is being endangered by reckless drivers every day...

It's not as bad as the US but it's far from good. Germany is car brain country, and it shows in ugly ways.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Generally i agree, is far from good. Where is it good though other than the Netherlands and a few select cities?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

You got that right: The point is that it's good in only a very few places. The people complaining are not whining or so - car brainism really is a big, big problem all over the world.

[–] [email protected] 73 points 2 months ago (2 children)

It may not be as bad as the US, but Car culture in Germany has left it's impact on german citys as well. Both Munich and Berlin for example have massiv highways going right through them. And keeping that at bay or even reversing it is an ongoing struggle.

Source: lived in both citys

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago

I thought Munich was bad (lived there and in its suburbs for most of my life) but I recently moved to Leipzig. Jesus Christ.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Still those are much smaller than in some US cities.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago

Every time I hear about highways in the US my mind keeps going back to that part of the I-10 in Houston

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Japan focuses on overall health and how a building fits into its environment rather than focusing solely on urban development and expansion as a means unto itself, its urban planning is very environment and people- focused.

their priorities are better, so they plan and execute cities, factories and planned environments that fit into an existijg system and are better for people.

it doesn't mean that capitalism and development doesn't have a place in their society, but it does mean that it has a specific place.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

So you're focused on withstanding road brain.

After WW2 everyone was broke. In Germany there was no money to build new massive freeway projects. No one had money to buy cars anyway. You can watch the movie "Judgment at Nuremberg", it's fiction but one thing that stuck out to me was people riding bicycles. They also had a lot of things to focus on. It took a long time to get things back on track.

Japan also had no money, though they did try the car thing for a while afaik. There were many problems. First was there was not much room for the cars and car parks. Land is tight there. Second was there was no massive domestic gasoline production. I think they finally realized that if everyone drove like Americans, that they would be sending a ton of money outside the country for oil.

As for how Japan became home to massive car companies. First the lack of resources led to the Japanese car companies making a new production technique called Just It Time manufacturing. Instead of lots of inventory of parts to assemble, they timed everything to arrive just in time. Sometimes called lean manufacturing. It may not sound like much but it leads to much cheaper production. And they committed to high quality with "Andon" which was a pull cord workers could pull to stop the line and call management over to quality or production issues. They really got the manufacturing process down because of necessity. Finally they really needed things to export, cars were one of them. Cars are high value and relatively easy to export.

The German domestic market was still big enough on its own to keep their companies aloft. I'm not sure how those expanded.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (5 children)

I don’t think this is the cause of it though: No money for buying cars. My guess is, it’s because there were more alternatives such as trains and public trams and cities are more densely build out of history.

Despite the US, Germany(& Europe) and Japan had a huge railway network spanning all cities and even smaller cities. The area I lived in Germany had the first railway 1840. Japan 1872. US 1827. However, if you look into the network expansion the US never reached the density and complexity of both others due to it’s sheer size.

With the advent of trains all bigger European and Japanese cities began to build public tram systems. To such an extent that it spans most of the citied nowadays. This is still not the state in US. One can literally see the difference when visiting US, German, and Japanese cities todays.

Moreover, US hadn’t cities that grow organically throughout the centuries. And there is much space available. No dense historic city centers, no growing city rings. E.g. you can easily cross an one million city such as Cologne by bike in 1-1,5 hour. (And adding traffic jams and parking lot search time, bike is more efficient and easy)

Interactive map railway network Germany: https://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/bahn-schienennetz-deutschland-1835-bis-heute/

Video railway network Japan https://jref.com/threads/video-150-years-of-japan-railway-network.504981/

Video railway network US https://youtu.be/a8lX5A2q-Eo?si=-zjdLE1Wz8TlyCbt. Wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transportation_in_the_United_States

Public tram systems in US https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_streetcar_systems_in_the_United_States

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

James May of Top Gear fame actually went into this in an episode of "Cars of the People" season 2 episode 1. Basically, he claims it was actually World War II that set things on that course. Pretty enlightening episode IMHO.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

They don't shit where they eat chasing the last couple of points on a quarterly report. Export to the US and others is enough.

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