this post was submitted on 24 Jul 2024
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cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/11683880

cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/11683421

The EU has quietly imposed cash limits EU-wide:

  • €3k limit on anonymous payments
  • €10k limit regardless (link which also lists state-by-state limits).

From the jailed¹ article:

An EU-wide maximum limit of €10 000 is set for cash payments, which will make it harder for criminals to launder dirty money.

It will also strip dignity and autonomy from non-criminal adults, you nannying assholes!

In addition, according to the provisional agreement, obliged entities will need to identify and verify the identity of a person who carries out an occasional transaction in cash between €3 000 and €10 000.

The hunt for “money launderers” and “terrorists” is not likely meaningfully facilitated by depriving the privacy of people involved in small €3k transactions. It’s a bogus excuse for empowering a police surveillance state. It’s a shame how quietly this apparently happened. No news or chatter about it.

¹ the EU’s own website is an exclusive privacy-abusing Cloudflare site inaccessible several demographics of people. Sad that we need to rely on the website of a US library to get equitable access to official EU communication.

update


The Pirate party’s reaction is spot on. They also point out that cryptocurrency is affected. Which in the end amounts to forced banking.

#warOnCash

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

The point for me is that the government automatically seems to think that cash payments are for something illegal. And all of a sudden, the burden is on me to proof that it is not.

While technically speaking, paying with cash is a very legal way to pay and should not require any explanation at all. Nor should it be more difficult.

Of course, there is a limit, and I get that paying a 2 million dollar house in cash is reason to at least ask where that money came from. But 3000 dollars or 100000 are amounts of money that in my opinion do not deserve the same amount of checking.

A lot of random but legal stuff can be done with 10000 dollars of cash. And yes, sometimes you use cash because you don't want your identity known. Doesn't mean you are doing something illegal. If the government thinks it is illegal, they should open an investigation and proof it.

Instead they put the burden on you. Doesn't seem fair to me, and a limitation on my personal freedom to spend money however I like.

Not to mention, even things that are legal now, could be made illegal by governments to come, and dictators or oppressive regimes will have no problems with checking logs to see which assholes did something that goes against their values in the past. For that reason alone, governments should only be tracking the minimum amount of information they need.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Money laundering is a real issue so I understand why they would like to do something like this. Having read through the comments here I can see that a lot of people are opposed but I don't really get why.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It stops you from spending your money anonymously. Why is it the state's business if you want to buy a hijab? Fine, they're illegal to wear outside, but if it's legal to wear inside I should be allowed to own one without scrutiny. But I also don't trust the regime that outlawed them in the first place to let me do that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I'm pretty sure you can get a hijab for under €3k...

At least I hope so, they don't seem very expensive.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Sure, so swap it out with something that costs more than 3K.

  • What if you want to buy a A100, it's a graphics card for doing maths on your computer, it costs 5000 euro. Maybe I'm using it for my AI boyfriend and I think it's embarrassing and don't want anyone to know, or I'm making political cartoons with 3D software and need a lot of VRAM.
  • Maybe I'm buying very many hijabs. Maybe I'm buying solar panels and don't want to randomly selected to be bothered by the cannabis inspector or I bought a new projector explicitly to give to someone else, but I don't want to be bothered by the telly license inspector -- who at least in Ireland is allowed to invade your privacy and inspect your home looking for projectors. It's not illegal to own a projector and not pay the license, it's only illegal to connect and use a projector without paying the license. If you buy it as a gift for someone who already has some sort of screen and is paying the license, you haven't done anything wrong and don't deserve the scrutiny.
  • Maybe I bought a statue and I don't want the government to know who I idolise.
  • Maybe I bought furniture and I don't want the government to know in case the person who made the furniture turns out to be the wrong ethnicity or religion or political affiliation in the future.
  • Maybe I bought a auto or bike to mod for use on my own property and don't want the government to notify all the relevant patent holders "just in case".
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Interestingly enough the €3k is, when converted to USD, almost exactly what I paid for, in cash, to buy my Street Triple a few weeks ago. I was weary of giving a ton of cash to some random stranger, and wanted to do a cashier's check. He didn't know what that was.

This makes me wonder, are cashier's checks considered cash under this rule in the EU?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

I had to look up cashier's check and it does not sound familiar at all. But searching a bit further it is a thing that exists, seems to be called Bank Check around here, it's just kind of expensive to use.

It's much more usual to pay in cash or use an account transfer (SEPA transfer) which is usually free, but with the delay of the transfer one of the parties usually takes a risk.

This year, in relation to the rule the post is about, they also forced banks that were dragging their feet to start supporting instant transfers.

I don't ultimately know the answer to your question though. I suspect the banks have to ask you for the origin, as if you turned up with 10k in cash, but I couldn't find anything definitive in the time I was searching around.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Cashier’s checks existed in Belgium a few years ago but I heard they are under fire and will be discontinued at some point.

Personal checks seem to be non-existent but I heard they can be requested but the banks give some resistance and try to steer people away from it. They only work domestically. I think if you gave a Belgian personal check to a Belgian, they would not generally know what to do with it.

Impulsive donations have been relatively killed off because cash donations are banned (I think because scammers impersonate charities). So that leaves check and electronic payment. Oxfam does not (AFAIK) carry payment terminals. Checks would make sense, but they are taboo. So they have to ask for a bank transfer, which gives donors a chance to be lazy and forget about it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

In my experience, charities try to get you on a recurrent donation nowadays instead of taking cash or transfers (although I am in the Netherlands, not Belgium). It's terribly annoying because they take the "being lazy and forget about it" and weaponise it against you.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

I get rid of them pretty quickly by saying I have no bank account. I might start adding to that “take cryptocurrency?” so they leave with the idea that maybe they should be open to cryptocurrency.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

I can't speak for all European countries, but at least in the Netherlands they're not a thing. We might still have money orders, which are similar, but I've never seen one used.

Instead we can just make instant bank transfers, even using a QR code, which you can generate in your own banking app and can be used with any other bank.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (5 children)

How will they enforce it? I'm sure big/medium businesses will comply, but how can you track a cash transaction between private citizens?

Furthermore in the country where I live (Italy, one of EU founding members) more than 60% of independent professionals (partite iva) evade/elude taxes in some way or another, and it's very common (so common that every Italian experienced it many times in their lives, me included) for small businesses and professionals to offer you a slight discount if you pay cash under the table (no receipt, so no taxes) and, even if we have an entire police force dedicated to financial crimes, the submerged economy is just so big that they can't deal with it now, imagine when they'll have to arrest/fine everybody that accepts more than €3000 in cash.

What somebody writes on a piece of paper and what happens in the real world are 2 very distinct things, many stores in Italy don't accept credit cards even if it's against them law, and only a minuscule fraction of them gets fined.

The EU has extremely nazi-esque control on the private financial life of its citizens (the state monitors your bank account, to open a bank account you need to give every info about u in the future they'll ask for your DNA probably, if you withdraw/deposit a "suspect" amount of money our IRS will come after your ass, ane you need to prove your innocence basically guilty untill proven otherwise, ecc, there are a thousand examples, I'm sure EU citizens can relate) but I can't see how they'll be able to track pieces of paper.

TLDR I can't even see how they will be able to enforce this law, especially when we talk about small businesses/independent contractors, and the situation gets even funnier when its a transaction between 2 private individuals.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

How will they enforce it? I’m sure big/medium businesses will comply, but how can you track a cash transaction between private citizens?

In the reporting I've seen there is a specific exception for private sales anyway. The example they give is that privately buying or selling a used car should remain possible.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Oh don't worry. If you try to deposit it at a bank, they'll start asking questions right away on how you got the money. Unless you never bring it into the "official" system, the financial surveillance system will find it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Enforceability varies depending on the scenario. Some countries have law that holds employers accountable for tax evaded by workers. Employers obviously won’t gamble, so they refuse to pay cash and cryptocurrency wages because they are scared shitless of being accountable for an employee’s evasion.

I demanded cryptocurrency payment and my employer refused on that basis. I intended to continue declaring it properly and just wanted a bit of freedom from bank dependency, but nothing could overcome the employer’s fears.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

I've worked in many EU countries and the feeling I often got is that in Italy, we are more advanced in fighting tax evasion and elusion.

Keep in mind that in switzerland for example there is no cap to cash transaction

In Germany and Austria often is difficult to pay with card because they don't accept it

I've seen Russian in Vienna going to luxury stores with literally stacks of money

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

How will they enforce it? I'm sure big/medium businesses will comply, but how can you track a cash transaction between private citizens?

Because that is not the point of the laws.

Infact the NL implementation of the laws specifically says it is for business to business and business to consumer.
There is no mention of private transactions.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Indeed national laws don’t generally limit p2p cash, but the EU law encroaches on that AFAICT.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

The US has the same rules, and are a driving force for this. They will enforce the rules the same as they do now for 10k payments. If you want clean money in a bank or if you want to travel with the money, or if you're just randomly stopped and have the money on you, you will be forced to prove its provenance or it will be seized.

This is already how it works in the EU, UK, Canada, and of course the USA.

The cash itself isn't the problem, it's getting that cash into a "clean" system where it can be used to buy anything that isn't cash. And with everything being non-cash on purpose because of these Nazi laws, you essentially have worthless paper you can't do anything with.

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