this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2025
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Science Memes

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 2 days ago

Here's a much more elegant solution for 17

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 days ago

I hate this so much

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Unless I’m wrong, it’s not the most efficient use of space but if you impose the square shape restriction, it is.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 days ago (2 children)

That's what he said. Pack 17 squares into a square

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[–] [email protected] 53 points 2 days ago

You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

That tiny gap on the right is killing me

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

It is one prove more, why it is important to think literally out of the box. But too much people of this type

https://i.vgy.me/UVG654.gif

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Not complete without the sounds

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

I love when I have to do research just to understand the question being asked.

Just kidding, I don't really love that.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

~~To be fair, the large square can not be cleanly divided by the smaller square(s). Seems obvious to most people, but I didn't get it at first.~~

~~In other words: The size relation of the squares makes this weird solution the most efficient (yet discovered).~~

Edit: nvm, I am just an idiot.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

The outer square is not given or fixed, it is the result of the arrangement inside. You pack the squares as tightly as you can and that then results in an enclosing square of some size. If someone finds a better arrangement the outer square will become smaller

[–] [email protected] 46 points 2 days ago (5 children)

Bees seeing this: "OK, screw it, we're making hexagons!"

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago
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[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago

But there are 7 squares in the middle with 10 around it, surely that counts for something

[–] [email protected] 61 points 2 days ago (3 children)
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[–] [email protected] 183 points 2 days ago (2 children)

With straight diagonal lines.

[–] [email protected] 75 points 2 days ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 days ago (5 children)

Why are there gaps on either side of the upper-right square? Seems like shoving those closed (like the OP image) would allow a little more twist on the center squares.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 days ago

You have a point. That's obnoxious. I just wanted straight lines. I'll see if I can find another.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 days ago

I think this diagram is less accurate. The original picture doesn’t have that gap

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 2 days ago (5 children)

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms why this is the most efficient way?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 days ago (2 children)

It crams the most boxes into the given square. If you take the seven angled boxes out and put them back in an orderly fashion, I think you can fit six of them. The last one won't fit. If you angle them, this is apparently the best solution.

What I wonder is if this has any practical applications.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago

There's very likely applications in algorithms that try to maximize resource usage while minimizing cost

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

yeah it vindicates my approach of packing stuff via just throwing it in there. no I'm not lazy and disorderly, this is optimal cargo space usage

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

It's a problem about minimizing the side length of the outer rectangle in order to fit rectangles of side length 1 into it.

It's somehow the most efficient way for 17 rectangles because math.

These are the solutions for the numbers next to 17:

[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It's not necessarily the most efficient, but it's the best guess we have. This is largely done by trial and error. There is no hard proof or surefire way to calculate optimal arrangements; this is just the best that anyone's come up with so far.

It's sort of like chess. Using computers, we can analyze moves and games at a very advanced level, but we still haven't "solved" chess, and we can't determine whether a game or move is perfect in general. There's no formula to solve it without exhaustively searching through every possible move, which would take more time than the universe has existed, even with our most powerful computers.

Perhaps someday, someone will figure out a way to prove this mathematically.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

They proved it for n=5 and 10.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 days ago

And the solutions we have for 5 or 10 appear elegant: perfect 45° angles, symmetry in the packed arrangement.

5 and 10 are interesting because they are one larger than a square number (2^2 and 3^2 respectively). So one might naively assume that the same category of solution could fit 4^2 + 1, where you just take the extra square and try to fit it in a vertical gap and a horizontal gap of exactly the right size to fit a square rotated 45°.

But no, 17 is 4^2 + 1 and this ugly abomination is proven to be more efficient.

[–] [email protected] 145 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (4 children)

These categories of geometric problem are ridiculously difficult to find the definitive perfect solution for, which is exactly why people have been grinding on them for decades, and mathematicians can't say any more than "it's the best one found so far"

For this particular problem the diagram isn't answering "the most efficient way to pack some particular square" but "what is the smallest square that can fit 17 unit-sized (1x1) squares inside it" - with the answer here being 4.675 unit length per side.

Trivially for 16 squares they would fit inside a grid of 4x4 perfectly, with four squares on each row, nice and tidy. To fit just one more square we could size the container up to 5x5, and it would remain nice and tidy, but there is then obviously a lot of empty space, which suggests the solution must be in-between. But if the solution is in between, then some squares must start going slanted to enable the outer square to reduce in size, as it is only by doing this we can utilise unfilled gaps to save space by poking the corners of other squares into them.

So, we can't answer what the optimal solution exactly is, or prove none is better than this, but we can certainly demonstrate that the solution is going to be very ugly and messy.

Another similar (but less ugly) geometric problem is the moving sofa problem which has again seen small iterations over a long period of time.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago (3 children)

All this should tell us is that we have a strong irrational preference for right angles being aligned with each other.

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Lol, the ambidextrous sofa. It's a butt plug.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

It's also a great name for a cover band.

Butt rock covers of gospel songs perhaps?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Now I want to rewatch Requiem for a dream.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 days ago

Thanks for the explanation

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Any other configurations results in a larger enclosed square. This is the most optimal way to pack 17 squares that we’ve found

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Do you know how inspiring documentaries describe maths are everywhere, telling us about the golden ratio in art and animal shells, and pi, and perfect circles and Euler's number and natural growth, etc? Well, this, I can see it really happening in the world.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Is this a hard limit we’ve proven or can we still keep trying?

[–] [email protected] 37 points 2 days ago (2 children)

We actually haven't found a universal packing algorithm, so it's on a case-by-case basis. This is the best we've found so far for this case (17 squares in a square).

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 days ago

Figuring out 1-4 must have been sooo tough

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 2 days ago

It's the best we've found so far

[–] [email protected] 53 points 2 days ago

If there was a god, I'd imagine them designing the universe and giggling like an idiot when they made math.

[–] [email protected] 152 points 2 days ago

Oh so you're telling me that my storage unit is actually incredibly well optimised for space efficiency?

Nice!

[–] [email protected] 79 points 2 days ago (1 children)

if I ever have to pack boxes like this I'm going to throw up

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 days ago

I've definitely packed a box like this, but I've never packed boxes like this 😳

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