this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2024
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In canvas 2025, what if we ganged up against the largest country flag, whichever it is? (mander.xyz)
submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[Idea] If you don't want to see huge flags taking space over actual drawings in the Canvas, pick the biggest flag that you can find to deface.

As long as a lot of people are doing that, the ones templating larger flags will be forced to reduce their layouts and give more room for actual drawings.

[Reasoning] When it comes to country flags, I think that the immense majority of the users can be split into four groups:

  1. The ones who don't want to see country flags at all.
  2. The ones who are OK with smaller flags, but don't want to see larger ones.
  3. The ones who want to see a specific large flag taking a huge chunk of space.
  4. The ones who want to see the whole canvas burning, like the void.

I'm myself firmly rooted into #1, but this idea is a compromise between #1, #2 and #4.

Typically #3 uses numbers (and/or bots) to seize a huge chunk of the canvas to their flags. Well, let's use numbers against it then. As long as #1, #2 and #4 are trying to wreck the same flag, we win.

[inb4]

But what about identity flags?

Not a problem. They're typically bands instead of thick squares, and people drawing them are fairly accommodating.

But what about [insert another thing]

Even if [thing] is a problem, it's probably minor in comparison with huge country flags.

What should be the template?

None. We don't need one, as long as everyone is working against the same large flag.

Just draw something of your choice over the flag, preferably over its iconic features.

But I'm not creative enough for that!

No matter how shitty your drawing is, it's probably still way more original than a country flag. So don't feel discouraged.

That said, you can always help someone else with their drawing. Or plop in some text. Or just void.

Why are you posting this now, you bloody Slowpoke?

I wish that I thought about this before Canvas 2024. But better later than never. (And better early by a year for Canvas 2025.)

EDIT: addressing on general grounds some whining from group #3 (the ones who want to see a specific large flag taking a huge chunk of the canvas space).

You do realise that this sort of "war against the largest flag" should benefit even you, as long as the biggest flag is not the one you're working with, right? Even for you, this makes the canvas a more even level field. Let us not forget that you love to cover other flags with your own.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Man, then dont attend at all, dont troll, dont annoy others.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

As already discussed ad nauseam through the thread:

People who don't want those huge flags in the canvas have the exact same right to organise themselves and use the rules of the game to undo those flags, as the people who are making those flags. So cut off this "you either leave them alone or sod off" discourse, OK? That's what you're saying under different words.

Not even the void is trolling.

Annoyance in this sort of online game is part of the game, like it or not.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

But then the whole canvas is useless. If there just too many trolls then its no fun

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

But then the whole canvas is useless.

Nope. The canvas is a game; what matters is not the end result, but the process. It's all about people organising themselves towards certain goals, that conflict with the others' goals, and how they solve it through cooperation and competition.

That's we were there on first place, even if copypasting random pixel art in Kolourpaint would be faster and easier.

If there just too many trolls then its no fun

Again, not even the void is trolling.

That said, having too much competition would make it unfun, but so is having too little.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It is fair then when i just track your pixels down and just nullify your actions?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yes, even if I dislike the outcome. All is fair in love and war, and a good canvas should be a bit of both.

The issue that you might be noticing is on another level: perhaps we shouldn't know who placed a pixel, to avoid a group ganging up on an individual. I do not know.

(Still, what I'm proposing is not even remotely close to that. It's group vs. group.)

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

So mass harassment vs creator. Good, will tell that grant that this shouldnt be canvas rather KEEP OUT TROLLS canvas.

There should definitly show who placed a pixel to tell what troll placed it there, so you can just block him on the fediverse as you dont want to have contact with him ever.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

So mass harassment vs creator.

Full stop here. That is not even remotely close to what I said, to what I implied, or to the consequences of either; by implying otherwise, you're being at the very least a liar, so cut off the crap.

If you had actual concerns regarding harassment (odds are that you don't), you'd do better if you raised them towards the people organising the event, to change its rules, than trying to boss participants around with a thinly disguised "fuck off unless you play the game in the way that I order you to play".

I'm not wasting my time further with you.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

I am not wasting here against a troll that wants just destroy everyone elses art.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

could we incorporate artwork over the flag like it happened with the Australian flag?

spoilerI really wish I'm not mistaking it for the New Zeland Flag

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

could we incorporate artwork over the flag like it happened with the Australian flag?

My main idea is to deface the flag, so I'd ask people to not integrate the artwork. But if you do integrate the artwork I'd ask people to leave it alone and focus on the flag itself, so it would be safe.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

So you want to protect artwork on a flag but not the flag itself? I guess my ultimate question is why do you care so much about defacing any (larger) flags on the canvas if they don't even take up that much space with just the flag parts alone.

Like, you want to respect people's drawings that they spend hours working on while defacing other people's drawings that they spend hours on just because you don't like the "country-based identity that benefits the government" these latter drawings supposedly represent.

I really don't mean to offend you, I just want to understand where you're coming from with this.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Not quite "to protect it"; more like "to ignore it". Even if the drawings are nationalistic in nature. For multiple reasons:

  1. Less targets = less effort.
  2. Easier to coordinate efforts towards something clear-cut (like "this is a flag"), than something that is often up to debate (like "this is a nationalistic symbol").
  3. Those drawings are typically more elaborated than "me maeks flag". As such, their artistic value is (for me) higher.
  4. The interpretation of a drawing as a nationalistic symbol depends heavily on the context, usually provided by the flag. (Think for example on a Taj Mahal on itself vs. a Taj Mahal mit an Indian flag. Or, dunno, a kiwi fruit with a NZer flag.)

But the main reason is that, while I personally despise nationalism and all that "muh country! lol lmao heil!" babble, the idea is to coordinate people based on the goal, not the reason behind chasing said goal. Some might share my worldviews of nationalistic symbols being bad, but most won't - some will be there just to see the canvas burn, some for the sake of carving room for another (and hopefully smaller) flag, etc.

Now, regarding the effort necessary to put something on the canvas, and the fact that we'll be reverting the result of the hours that they spent there: at the end of the day, the Canvas is solely a game. And even if they might dislike it, this sort of "you did it and I undid it" is part of the game.

I really don’t mean to offend you, I just want to understand where you’re coming from with this.

Don't worry about it; you aren't offending me.

I also apologise for the defensive tone that I took towards you at the start; I was expecting a lot of sealioning in this thread, from some flag posters, and it did happen, however you're clearly not sealioning, so you didn't deserve that tone.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Those drawings are typically more elaborated than “me maeks flag”. As such, their artistic value is (for me) higher.

That might be true, but depending on the flag I'd say that the whole act of adapting it into pixel art bears artistic value enough to say that the people responsible don't just blindly copy a template.

nationalistic symbol

I believe that most people (I even want to say almost everyone) drawing their country's flag on the canvas don't do it because they're a nationalists or they want to force the flag (as a representation of a country and all the connotations it may have) onto other people.

That goes back to the point I made earlier about the two types of communities; defending the "purity" of the flag and not allowing anyone to draw on it is more akin to forcing the flag onto people I think, while allowing people to more or less "deface" the flag with their own drawings (while still respecting other people's drawings i.e. the flag itself) is much more inviting and arguably in the spirit of the whole event.

this sort of “you did it and I undid it” is part of the game.

I guess I just want everyone to get along and work together, rather than against each other. Reddit's r/place was a battlefield where only the biggest communities even had a chance of maintaining their works; I just want Lemmy canvas to be a bit more relaxed, that's all.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'll clip the quotes for succinctness.

That might be true, but depending on the flag [...] don’t just blindly copy a template.

I think that you're referring to the struggle of adapting an intricate pattern to a lower resolution, as the solutions for that struggle can be considered artistic. There are two catches however:

  1. This applies mostly to flags with emblems (as Mexico's) or text (as Saudi Arabia's). Those are typically not the concern in this sort of coop/compete online canvas.
  2. That artistic value is mostly relevant for smaller flags. And given that the proposal is to cut down larger flags into size, it'll actually increase their artistic value.

I believe that most people [...] don’t do it because they’re a nationalists or [...] onto other people.

Think a bit less on the people being nationalists and more on the discourse that those people are conveying being a nationalistic one.

That goes back to the point I made earlier about the two types of communities; [...] in the spirit of the whole event.

I don't think that those two types of user (ones willing vs. not willing to have drawings on a flag) map even remotely well to non-nationalists vs. nationalists. And, in any group posting any sort of country flag, you will have a mix of both types anyway, and it'll be impossible for anyone to enforce it one or another way.

Furthermore, when it comes to flag posters allegedly respecting the others' drawings, it goes often as I described in another comment; under a discourse that sounds a lot like “this is the land of Our Holy Symbol. However, since we’re magnanimous, we shall turn a blind eye to your doodle defacing it.”, while co-opting those the people drawing random stuff to defend the flag posters' flag, against other flags or actual drawings (as the people drawing random still likely care about the surroundings of their own drawing).

About the spirit of the event, see below.

I guess I just want everyone to get along and work together, rather than against each other. Reddit’s r/place was a battlefield where only the biggest communities even had a chance of maintaining their works; I just want Lemmy canvas to be a bit more relaxed, that’s all.

If the game was only about getting along and working together, it would be completely different. Factions like The Void would be banned on the spot, there would be a larger canvas to accommodate everyone, multi-accounting wouldn't be so discouraged, there would be measures discouraging people from undoing the others' drawings...

And yet none of those things happen. Because both cooperation and competition are part of the spirit of the game. In fact, I'd argue that they're sides of the same coin, with the actual spirit being to mirror human social interactions in something inconsequential. It's a bit like a political simulator, you know?

Even then I think that the Fediverse canvas will stay far more relaxed than the one in Reddit.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Our Holy Symbol

Again, I think that you're focusing way too hard on there being some sort of deeper meaning to people drawing a country flag. Maybe you're right and those people are nationalists who try to propagate some idea that their country is somehow better than yours by drawing a bigger flag. Why do you care so much?

the actual spirit being to mirror human social interactions in something inconsequential

I guess you could say it like that, although I would disagree that there are no consequences, most people just choose to ignore them because they don't affect them personally in any way.

I don't think we'll find common ground here, but that's totally fine. It's been nice talking about it anyway; I just hope everything I said made sense^^

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Ah, the "our holy symbol" was copypasted from my earlier comment, so it doesn't address what you've already said in the meantime.

I also don't think that we'll find common ground. It's sounding more and more like different moral premises; and yes, what you said made sense (even if I disagree with it).

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

The flaw in the plan is that three or four large-flag cadres could conspire to support each other and overwhelm a protest.

Ultimately, flags are just symbols similar to any other logo. But I’d still prefer just to see them banned from Canvas rather see Canvas turn into an r/place arms race.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It did make me feel a bit gross that from the get-go the plan was for the Australian flag to take up such an enormous space.

I'm satisfied with how things turned out, with art going all over the flag and the stars shining through, but it didn't seem considerate in the beginning.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I’m satisfied with how things turned out, with art going all over the flag and the stars shining through, but it didn’t seem considerate in the beginning.

It's often like this, to give you a false impression of a compromise. I've seen it all the time in r/place, for example. (Doubly true in pixelplanet, but that's... eh, let's say that biggest drawing there is a swastika.)

And typically, it goes like this:

  1. Claim a huge space of the canvas for the sake of the flag.
  2. Lay waste over whatever is in the middle of the way, be it drawings or flags from other herds.
  3. "Oh fuck, it's too big for us to defend. People are drawing random stuff over it."
  4. Eventually let the people drawing random stuff to do it, under the terms dictated by the flag itself. Under a discourse that sounds a lot like "this is the land of Our Holy Symbol. However, since we're magnanimous, we shall turn a blind eye to your doodle defacing it."
  5. [If applicable] Shift the blame of the step #2 on others. "Nooo, I didn't do it. Others did."

Besides the façade of compromise, there's also a second motivation for fourth last step: it's a way to co-opt people drawing random stuff to protect the flag, as they likely care about the surroundings of their own drawings.

Please do note, however, that people drawing those large flags do not want to reach an actual compromise. And playing nice (cooperation) only works if the other side is also playing nice - we shouldn't be playing dove in a hawk-dove game.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

something happened in r/place with the mexican flag, it got artwork on each of the bands, so what if "flaggers" put artwork on their flags, could be local memes or landmarks.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Then IMO we should left the artwork alone but still pick on the flag. Specially on iconic parts, that are typically uncovered by artwork. (In the case of the Mexican flag it would be the eagle over the cactus)

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Will you organise a Matrix chat for this? I'd definitely be interested in joining

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Will you organise a Matrix chat for this?

Now I will - that's a great idea.

I'm planning to do so when the next Canvas is announced, in 2025, as people will be a bit more pumped up to join than now. (For now I'm mostly gauging interest on the idea.)

When I do it, do you want me to ping you?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Feel free to ping me! o/

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

It's always kinda icky when ppl are so proud of popping out of a vagina/their parents having sex in a certain place, that they feel like plastering it all over a creative space in the most unimaginative ways

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I'm not quite sure I follow your reasoning here. You're saying that people shouldn't be proud of things that they have no control over? As a gay guy, should I not be able to put up a pride flag?

There's a ton of symbolism/meaning there, and doesn't always mean blind devotion to a country.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Being gay, or any other actual identity, is an intrinsic part of who you are that would still be true if all of society's constructs were to fall away. You'd still be interested, presumably, in people who presented in what we currently associate with masculine appearances. Trans folk would still be trans. POC, still POC.

Your home country doesn't hold up to the same rigour. I think that's the idea? Its less a "part of you" and more a "circumstance of your conception". But hey.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

This is succinctly put - thanks for explaining it in this way. Yes, I agree that sexuality is a part of me whereas a nation you were born into is more of an external circumstance that can change in meaning. I do think that a nation's flag can hold different meanings and representations for people though.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and I can certainly understand that from the perspective of nations that are currently being oppressed or suffering great hardships it might be a unifying symbol that helps people to find light in the darkness. I'm not sure I can see a huge argument for an Australian flag that covers 1/20th of the canvas, however. But to your original point, I see where you're coming from about these nations flags having other potential symbolism.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

imo grouping ppl into nations (and thus states) is usually harmful. Ethnicity and culture are not synonymous with states which only exist to oppress in favour of the rich

The concept of a nation is one of the initial lies of ruling elites. The exploiters and oppressors have shouted since the dawn of time: "Don't look at this massive ravine dividing us into materially opposing classes, we are all members of this abstract notion of a nation, remember? Direct your hate towards the exploited ppl of other nations, they are the source of our problems, even though you are much more aligned with them materially!"

For example: I wouldn't have a problem with ppl painting flags of progressive movements or states where the working classes are in power

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

May I quote you if necessary? 😀

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Why would you wanna quote me? >w<

it's just a basic Marxist take, nothing original

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

One doesn't have to be Marxist to recognise such things. I just thought that you phrased it well.
e: I also made a suggestion to ban flags in favour of the art and the spirit, in the "improvements" thread, and expected similar arguments.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

I'm stealing this pic. It's awesome.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Frankly, ditto. And it's icky for me specially when people conflate country with culture, like those people rather consistently do.

And... like, I get that we [people in general] get spammed by our governments with ideology, in order to ditch all available identities that we have at our disposal, and adopt the country-based identity that benefits the government. It's more often than not fuel for oppression.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Don’t know if you’re familiar with the US Oath of Allegiance that every school kid is forced to recite at the beginning of the day, but it’s literally an oath to a flag. Completely fucked up, IMO.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm aware of the oath of allegiance, and that it's an oath to a flag. On its own, this sounds ridiculous already - a symbol for another symbol, just like Brazil's hymn to the flag.

But being forced to recite it at the start of the day is news for me, and throws the "disgusting" factor up the roof. Even if it was with adults, and not reciting it was only socially awkward, it would be already a clear violation of consent. Swap the adults with kids and have their superiors (the school staff) forcing them to do so, and it gets way worse.

This also shows really well that a flag is not the symbol of a population, it's the symbol of a government. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to require to have them to pledge allegiance.

Sadly, I don't think that the US government is special in this aspect. Governments are like this.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Agreed on all points. And I’m sure the US is not unique.

Come to think of it, the national anthem is also about the flag. We have a real fetish for cloth crafting.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Come to think of it, the national anthem is also about the flag. We have a real fetish for cloth crafting.

Acc. to a map that I found it's relatively uncommon, but it does pop up for other governments (mostly Albania, Somalia, Switzerland, Turkey). So... yeah, your power structure does have a fetish for cloth crafting.

(Most other countries anthems talk about killing, self-references, or worship some individual. In the meantime almost none talks about friendship, and based on this map none seems to acknowledge that the world is not just the territory controlled by its government.)

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

There some progressive battle anthems/hyms or some with a battle theme in a part of them and they still espouse friendship the working peoples of this world! (though that's usually the case for (used to be) socialist music) "The Internationale", Vietnam's anthem, "Auferstanden aus Ruinen" and ofc USSR's anthem come to mind

What I mean to say is that violence can be liberatory instead of oppressive (like in the case of Vietnam)

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

What I mean to say is that violence can be liberatory instead of oppressive

Fair point.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I think the templates should be limited in size perhaps - if you look at the intended template location post from the other day, yes the Australian flag is significantly larger than the other submissions. However on the final canvas, people have drawn within the blue space of the flag which is actually quite cute. I don't think 'defacing' is necessary, but rather a continuation of (at least what appears to me to be) a symbiosis where overlapping images work together.

So I guess I'd like to see drawing accepted on top of any large continuous blocks of colour.

P.s. I love what Canada did - the outline on top of the flag looks really cool!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Limiting the template regardless of what's being drawn is an idea worth discussing with the devs.

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