Wait, you mean internet arguments aren't a game of chicken where the winner is whoever gets the last reply?
this post was submitted on 12 Jul 2024
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Oh goodness, I should hope not! I love arguing on the internet, and I would hate to think that I'm actually changing peoples minds.
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Nuh-uh, not me. I stop long before they change their mind.
The last few years had made me lose all respect for debates as a field of study. Remembering shit like logos and pathos and all that nonsense for nothing.
One of the most refreshing things I've seen since joining Lemmy is people actually apologizing in comment threads like this.
I'm sorry to hear that! Don't worry, it'll get better as more people join, just you wait!
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Wether it's on the internet or at a bar counter, I like to engage in debate to better myself. If your goal is to turn every fanatic that crosses your path, you're gonna be depressed real soon.
But - debates don't better yourself. Only your debating skills in particular get better. It's a return to Middle Ages with theologists publicly "defeating" heretic and Jewish and Muslim philosophy.
And "turn" is an interesting word, making the association even stronger.
If you're debating in good faith you are bettering yourself by improving your understanding of a different view point, and letting your own views be challenged so you can reassess if you still hold them.
There's no hope in changing the mind of every fanatic you come across.
But we generally don't have internet debates in DMs, we do it in public forums. The goal isn't to sway the fanatics, it's to publicly quash their arguments. To sway curious onlookers away from fanaticism before they become fanatics themselves.
The goal isn’t to sway the fanatics, it’s to publicly quash their arguments. To sway curious onlookers away from fanaticism before they become fanatics themselves.
As I've said in another comment, this is return to Middle Ages. Debating skills have not much in common with reasoning skills.
Nor are they mutually exclusive. A competent debater can intertwine rhetoric with logic to make a compelling argument for a well-reasoned position.
For my argument it's sufficient that they are very much not the same.
This is similar to saying that a big company leading in some area can be benevolent and do good things. Yes, it can, like DEC, Sun, at some point even IBM. Doesn't prove the statement that every social institution and mechanism out there must be replaced by markets.
You're the only one making that argument, and it doesn't follow from my initial point. I'm not even really sure what point you're trying to make.
How does anything you're saying negate the fact that people make bad but persuasive points online, and gullible people fall for that persuasion? Or that those gullible people lack the entrenchment of the bad actors, and can be redirected from those bad points to better ones if persuasive arguments are presented directly in response to the bad ones?
he goal isn’t to sway the fanatics, it’s to publicly quash their arguments. To sway curious onlookers away from fanaticism before they become fanatics themselves.
Friendly reminder that the above is what I answered first.
Sorry, but this is a load of bollocks. It's you putting yourself above some "gullible people" and still using debate skills to deceive them, just in some "good" direction. Maybe you are really right, but they believe you for the wrong reasons, and the process itself doesn't reinforce that you are right in any way.
If they're already going to believe the wrong things for the wrong reasons, why not present the right things for the wrong reasons? Those who need the right reasons to change their mind are beyond the scope of this approach.
This is outreach to the gullible for harm reduction when they might otherwise filter themselves into a dangerous pipeline. This isn't using debate skills to deceive, it's using them to counter those who do use their debate skills to deceive. Even if the content may possibly be wrong, by presenting it in contrast to preceding content it necessarily widens the debate-space from an unopposed confident statement to a dialogue that the onlooker can take into consideration while making their own decision.
it necessarily widens the debate-space from an unopposed confident statement to a dialogue that the onlooker can take into consideration while making their own decision.
That part would be right if we weren't talking about social media, which are designed to neuter this effect.
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If your goal in an argument is to change the other person's mind, then changing your mind (by taking in new information, learning, and understanding a different point of view) is seen as losing. That's a terrible way to look at what is ultimately personal growth.
As I've just said in two other comments, "changing someone's mind" is just a return to barbarism and Middle Ages. When a few literate theology doctors would publicly "defeat" their opponents, the barely literate mass of their audience (monks, nobles and such) would watch and approve, and the illiterate mass would kinda get that those pesky heretics\infidels got totally owned by facts and logic.
So any person arguing with that emotion and visible goal should just be left to eat other such ignorami. Nobody worth arguing with has those.
Love this, thank you.
Nuh-uh
Sir, this is the internet, nobody is allowed to quit
No they don't
Hey, i think that lady by the license plate stand was talking to you...
That sounds like the words of someone who quits right before they change the other person's mind
Well actually they do.
According to this trusted source.
👋 Me. I clicked it.
I'm not reading that.
Your facts are meaningless to me, a guy with an opinion.
Now I get angry and make hurtful accusations about you.
Nuh-uh
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People don't change their mind so easily...
I do, I really do. If the argument is logical and coherent.
Me too. I want someone to tell me when I’m wrong. What’s wrong with us?
Remindes me of the tweet that said something like "My favorite moment on the internet was when someone said, they believe that people will changed their mind when given evidence. Then I linked TWO SOURCES that said otherwise and they were like I still believe it."
Or when a hexbearian explained to me that hexbear isn't toxic at all, it's just when people refuse to read sources but than it's their fault for not engaging with the material. Later they refused to open my sources.
Good that they didn't change their mind. If they had, you'd have been in trouble because your sources said otherwise.
Ya got a source for that?
/s
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Gabagool was the most important story arc in the Sopranos, change my view.
Was gabagool behind the camera in the final scene?
That is one of my favorite theories. Meadow walks in and frisbee throws a full stack of gabagool to Tony. It's covers the camera, and that was the last of the film for the day. They liked it so much they kept it.