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isn't the generally accepted solution to this just "-e"? like "no binarie", or "latine"
i feel like this is a bit of a trend, there's a pretty decent solution that mostly works with existing grammar and for some reason you don't really see anyone using it..
Generally this works with Spanish. But other Latin languages like Italian cannot have this option: so we have to use tricks like tuttə for anyone or others escamotages
Only in written language though, as the schwa can't really be pronounced. I guess the way is to simply use both verbally ("tutti e tutte"), even though it's not really necessary as "tutti" already includes - well - everyone (incl. non binary people).
There's an argument to be made that "no binario" is the more correct. Latin has a neutral grammatical gender ("bīnārium") that has been mostly assimilated into the masculine gender in Spanish.
No binarie.
This is why some people insist on the generic he in English. A few hundred years ago, some British asshole who thought Latin was a perfect language decided to impose Latin rules on English, including such nonsense as "you can't end a sentence with a preposition" and "never split infinitives", as well as proscribing the then-common singular they in favor of "he". The damage he did to the English language is still not fully repaired.
But not ending a sentence with a preposition lead to a surprising grammar joke in "Beavis and Butthead Do America" which was one of the highlights of my early twenties.
It was really something magnificent to behold :)
If it was so good then what was it?
Yeah -- it kind of loses something when you retell it out of context, but I'll give it a go :-
Agent Bork: Chief, you know that guy whose camper they were whacking off in?
Agent Fleming: Bork, you're a Federal Agent. You represent the United States government. Never end a sentence with a preposition.
See I am a huge grammar nerd, and I find grammar jokes, and dangling modifier jokes and so on, really funny.
But given the general level of humour in "Beavis and Butthead" I wasn't expecting this sort of joke, and it entirely caught me by surprise, and made me laugh for five minutes. I just thought it was far funnier and far better than most of the humour in the film.
Yeah, okay. Maybe it's just me.
the singular they is pretty cool
thanks! i think you're pretty cool too
Who is this Brit, I want to have a word
A bit ignorant take. Grammatical gender does not always imply the actual gender of the subject, and Spanish can easily form gender neutral-nouns or sentences. For example: "persona no binaria" is entirely made with "feminine" words, but it's meaning (non-binary person) is entirely gender-neutral.
This is also why most Spanish speakers make fun of anglophones who use "latix". It's embarrassing, condescending and completely unnecessary, it shows a lack of understanding of how Spanish is actually used by it's speakers
Here's another common way to make gender-neutral Spanish, while making it explicit:
Take the sentence "The workers are radicalizing." Workers is "Trabajadores" a masculine-plural word. The Royal Academy of Spanish Language, clarifies that the maculine form of any noun includes participants of any gender, so to say "Los Trabajadores se están radicalizando" would be grammatically correct, and no Spanish speaker would really asume you only have male workers. However, to make inclusion more explicit, it isn't uncommon for companies to use double articles: "Las y los trabajadores se están radicalizando." Notice that the noun has remained in masculine form, instead the articles have been used to make it explicit that the writer does see gender as a binary. You would see this in office-settings, but as you can hopefully see. Doing it like this actually reinforces the binary perspective, rather than the other way around.
TL&DR: Use "Latino/a" or "Hispanic", instead of "Latix" if you don't want your maid and gardener to laugh their asses off at your expense. Also, all words in Spanish have gender, that doesn't mean all people have to as well.
The irony is that in wanting to include their variable/neutral gender via x or @ instead of 'o' or 'a', people that use screen readers usually get excluded, as the programs don't recognize "latinx" or "latin@" - same applies to Portuguese
"Las y los trabajadores se están radicalizando."
What about the nonbinary workers? Les trabajadores?
"Les" doesn't exist. Just use "Los trabajadores". It means everyone, doesn't matter their gender.
Similar issue in Italian. Neutral gender in Latin consolidated in the male gender. It is what it is. There are some English-speakers who have really hard time to understand that different languages work in different ways, somehow.
That said, there are discussions about using both articles or more weird stuff like "*" or even the Ə character to replace the ending, which most people are not used to yet, though.
It is what it is
Yet that does not logically imply that it is as it should be. And if it should be as it isn't, then the fact that it is what it is tells us that it should be improved.
Doesn't mean the current attempt is actually doing a good job at improving the situation, tho
The current attempt is Latine. What's wrong with E? I thought everyone generally liked it.
You still have to deal with the "el/los" and "la/las", because that depends on the word's gender. Should it be "el latine" or "la latine"? Invent le/les to comply? And when it comes to quantity, un latino, una latina, uns latinos, unas latinas, un(?) latine?
every time i see a /u/mindtraveller post I'm like "that's correct but i hate it"
Thank you, that means a lot. Remember that consensus reality is a social construct produced within the conditions of patriarchy and white supremacy.
Sure, but my point is:
In fact, what I mentioned above (about * and the schwa) are processes that exist among speakers to address what some perceive as a problem in the language. However this is something that for obvious reasons only applies to written language as both of them are not pronounceable.
Different languages also have a different prescriptive vs descriptive balance, hence changes happen differently.
You simply can't transport English "solutions" to problems (I.e. neutral words) to Spanish (or Italian), because neutral for this language is the same as masculine. However, for speakers, gender is not perceived in the same way it is perceived in English. It is completely obvious (I can speak for Italian, but given the similarity I am sure the same applies to Spanish) that both "umani" (humans) and "persone" (people) include everyone, even if the first is a masculine word and the second is a feminine word, grammatically speaking. Nobody thinks of the gender of the word as the gender of the concept, because that's not how the language works. When you want to do that, you add context that make it semantically obvious. This is apparently how English works instead, because gender has basically no other function, so you get things like the one in the screenshot, that doesn't make any sense.
Hispanic here, absolutely hate Latinx, feels like a term made by English speakers on behalf of us for "inclusivity"
It's not though. That's a myth. It was created by latine nonbinary math nerds on old internet message boards. Since they were math nerds, they used x to represent a variable that could be anything. They only designed it for use on message boards, they never thought about how to pronounce it. You're allowed to think those latine geeks did a bad job, but calling them English speakers is factually incorrect.
Source? I wanna see the old message board post! Just out of curiosity, genuinely.
feels like
That's exactly what it is, so that's an accurate feeling.
So would you use Latina or Latino to refer to a non binary person?
In theory? I would use Latino, as in terms of pure grammar this is the correct answer, it's not about the gender of the person, it's about constructing the sentence following appropriate grammar.
In practice? I would just ask what they prefer. Lol
Even as a boy in latinamerica I found strange that my cousins where "las primitas" when I was not included and "los primitos" when I was. Like, what gave me so much power to change the gender of a group of 9 girls? Anyway, since 2005 or so, my small communist mailing group was discussing the way we use gendered words, being influenced by Spanish feminist groups. We were like 10 guys and a woman on the mailing list, and after a lot of discussion we decided to start using feminine gender for everything, given that "nobody" care.
You mean "Latinx"? That came out of the trend for slapping Xs onto words to make them inclusive. The problem is that it can't conjugate properly, which is why POC activists now prefer the term "Latine".
latrine
Latines, can't be conjugated either, the problem is Spanish requires gender and number to match in each element of a sentence. Pretending to use "latine or latinx" ignores the fact of what comes after or before.
Take the sentence: "Los latinos son revolucionarios." (Latinos are revolutionaries.)
Let's try with "latines": "Los latines son revolucionarios."
This sentence is grammatically incorrect, gender and number between adjective, articles and nouns do not match. Do we make up new words? A new way of conjugating? Replace all terminations of all words with gender neutral ones?
How about just realizing that no one would assume you are talking only about males, unless you explicitly stated: "Los hombres latinos son revolucionarios." (Latino men are revolutionaries.) Notice how the same is true for English?
The point is Spanish does not need a neutral gender. Partly because it does have one, but it's only used for some objects and adjectives. "Este cuadro captura lo ominoso que vio en su pesadilla." (This painting captures the ominous thing they saw in their nightmare.)
"Ominous" in this sentence is being conjugated in neutral form, and using a tacit subject leaves the gender of the painter completely unmentioned.
I don't doubt there are people who use latinx and latine, my point is, most of the time that's a sign of ignorance and of not having done due dilligence. Token inclusion.
The term latinx was first recorded on brazillian protests on 1900, but popularized on academic papers since de 2000
https://www.theactuarymagazine.org/should-i-call-you-latinx/
Okay, let's try this again, but for an entirely different reason this time...........
I've seen latine used by some Spanish speakers. It seems like opinions are certainly more positive about it than Latinx, but that's a low bar
Latine is at least pronounceable, and doesn't sound like you're describing your former spouse from South America.
Grammatical gender isn't the same as regular gender, but neither are real.
ironically i'm pretty sure grammatical gender is more real than regular gender
Morons who think they’re better than others: “No Binarix”
Sounds like an Asterix and Obelix character. I’m in.