this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2024

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Explaining software development methods by flying to Mars (feddit.uk)

submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago

I like how many devs this pissed off. this picture is whack tho wtf

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The creator does not know Scrum, it's about transparency and not intransparency.

Also Kanban, Scrum and Lean Development are all agile development.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago

I don't understand the Scrum one. Scrum is also agile with short development cycles, and prioritizes communication with the product owners and stakeholders.

I've never heard of lean development, but not a fan of "lean manufacturing," at least not the way it's commonly implemented in the U.S. (using primarily temp workers so they can ramp up and down their workforce as needed; and it also exacerbates supply-chain problems).

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Yeah, I remember the time i had a project manager who’d come over from the construction industry, used construction industry metaphors, and thought everything would be the same.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 months ago

If the person who drew that comic understood anything about complex systems or why agile works when used properly, it could make sense. But it doesn't.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Guess usual (state funded) rocket building is Kanban. Space X and BlueOrigin & co are Agile, except that one that was Lean.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

I heard fuckin nasa does TDD

[–] [email protected] 117 points 2 months ago (6 children)

This is waterfall method propaganda! It never works out this smoothly. They probably forgot important requirements like: the astronauts need to be alive on Mars.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

Or the funders get bored of waiting after ten years of "no Mars yet" and cancel the project, leaving you with a half finished rocket.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

All the projects that have shittier outcomes in my experience is always waterfall. This is mainly because the stakeholders usually have this bright idea to be added in the middle of development that's really need to be added at all costs and then got angry when the timeline got pushed because of their fucking request breaking a lot of shit.

At least scrum has a lead time of around 2 weeks so that when someone has a idea we can tell them we'll add it to the backlog and hope they forgot about it during the next sprint planning.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

I'm sure, doth the Astrumants should survive the landing, there should be a way to return, and they need a shitter as part of the missed requirements. As it's a waterfall, that will come in the second, third, and fourth trips.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Actual real world right now giant rockets include

One that is being built under waterfall methodology. It has been being built for several years. That's the Blue Origin New Glen heavy lift reusable rocket
One that is being developed under an agile methodology, it flew as a subscale lander to test their engine and flight control, it has flown four full test flights, improving on each. That's SpaceX's Starship

We are yet to see either launch a payload to orbit

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

How was appollo programme planned?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

It was outsourced to the guy who ran Nazi concentration camps to build ballistic missiles to bomb London with.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

2 years later: It's now up to the lawyers to figure out if it's the rocket that doesn't meet agreed requirements or if it's on the customer for not giving proper requirements.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

I hate how true this is. Not even 2 years later for my case.

[–] [email protected] 53 points 2 months ago

Waterfall is missing the part where the customer realizes they didn't actually want to go to Mars they just wanted to view it out of a telescope.

But now they can only travel to Mars and the telescope is out of the budget because you spent so much money on the rocket

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

This is what I came to the comment section for.

If like me you're not a pro, it seems to literally just mean linear phases, so yeah, any nonlinearity would cause problems.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Edgy meme: agile bad

NASA: "Yep, we use agile" https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20160006387/downloads/20160006387.pdf?attachment=true

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Going to the moon as a step towards going to Mars is so eminently correct that this comic should actually be Agile propaganda

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

It’s like camping in the garden, in the hopes you’ll reduce your commute.

[+] [email protected] -11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

NASA also built the space shuttle, which was a plane that couldn't fly by itself (as it was supposed to), was slower to turn around and more expensive than older equivalent technologies, and blew up all the astronauts 1.5% of the time.

I mean, they're great at other things - who else could have made the JWST work flawlessly with one opportunity - but they're a definite source of hype, and they do something very particular and specialised. Beware endorsements.

Edit: Fuck you, I'm right. Keep 'em coming.

I don't even care about Agile either way. This just isn't a good argument for it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I can see you're frustrated by the downvotes and pushback you've received. It's understandable to feel defensive when your viewpoint isn't well-received. I appreciate you sharing your perspective, even if it goes against the majority opinion here.

Your points about the space shuttle program's challenges are valid and worth discussing. It's important to note the timeframes involved though. The shuttle was developed in the 1970s, well before agile methodologies emerged in the 1990s and 2000s.

Interestingly, one could argue that NASA may have used agile-like practices in the space shuttle program, even if they weren't labeled as such at the time. However, I did a quick search and couldn't find much concrete evidence to support this idea. It's an intriguing area that might merit further research.

Regarding modern agile approaches, while no method is perfect, many organizations have found them helpful for improving flexibility and delivering value incrementally. NASA's recent use of agile for certain projects shows they're open to evolving their methods.

I'm curious to hear more about your thoughts on software development approaches for complex engineering projects. What do you see as the pros and cons of different methodologies? Your insights could add a lot to this discussion.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I can see you’re frustrated by the downvotes and pushback you’ve received. It’s understandable to feel defensive when your viewpoint isn’t well-received. I appreciate you sharing your perspective, even if it goes against the majority opinion here.

Thanks for the kind words. FWIW I'm doing fine, this feels like a worthy fight. I know a bad appeal to authority when I see one.

Interestingly, one could argue that NASA may have used agile-like practices in the space shuttle program, even if they weren’t labeled as such at the time. However, I did a quick search and couldn’t find much concrete evidence to support this idea. It’s an intriguing area that might merit further research.

There's somebody else in the thread talking about the Apollo missions and Agile. Uhh, here, because I don't know if federated comment links are supported yet. There's no source for that already provided, though.

What do you see as the pros and cons of different methodologies? Your insights could add a lot to this discussion.

Honestly no. Sorry to undercut you a bit, but I'm not going to be the Dunning-Kruger guy. I know that I don't know project management.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

I appreciate your candor about not wanting to speak on topics outside your expertise. That's commendable. I wonder if we can still talk with the understanding that we may not know it all. I truly believe curiosity is able to sidestep many of the problems related with ignorance.

You're right to be cautious about appeals to authority. My intention wasn't to suggest NASA's use of Agile validates it universally, but rather to counter the OP comic's implication that Agile is inherently incapable of achieving significant goals like space exploration.

Regarding Agile-like practices in earlier NASA projects, you're correct that concrete evidence is limited. However, we can analyze their approaches through the lens of Agile principles. Scrum, for instance, aims to foster characteristics found in high-performing teams: clear goals, information saturation, rapid feedback loops, adaptability to changing requirements, and effective collaboration. These elements aren't exclusive to Scrum or even to modern Agile methodologies. The key is recognizing that effective project management often naturally gravitates towards these principles, whether formally adopting Agile or not.

It's an interesting area for further research: have complex engineering projects historically incorporated elements we now associate with Agile? If so, how?

Your skepticism is valuable in pushing for a more nuanced understanding of project management across different domains.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

NASA also successfully flew a helicopter on Mars first try.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Yep. They're probably better than anyone at making a complex system with literal moving parts that works 100% of the time, the first time. On a nearly unlimited budget, with a decades-long schedule. In an institution and culture that's now a been around a lifetime, staffed with top-notch people.

That's all perfect for what NASA does, but I wouldn't recommend a management system that NASA uses to just anyone, just 'cause "da astronauts" use it. Not any more than I'd recommend drinking your own distilled piss to anyone.

I don't really have an opinion on Agile, even, I just have a problem with selling it this way.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

That’s fair enough. The common misconception is that waterfall is great for space missions, when in reality NASA is doing agile.

I agree that not everybody is NASA, so what works for them doesn’t necessarily work for everyone.

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