We've been making these Dune time machine jokes since Back to the Future.
this post was submitted on 22 May 2024
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Now tell us how Lord of the Rings ripped off Star Wars, so that your journey to the dark side will be complete...
Wow. A legit /MurderedByWords. Very rare even on reddit.
When I said my biggest problem with the story was the same problem I had with Star Wars, royalty starting wars. My buddy who likes both said they were "Space Operas". I think that's the perfect way to describe them and how they are similar.
—Wait till they find out about Rebel Moon and how it was churned out with the specific intent of creating a space-franchise to capitalise on.
I would say Dune (at least the first book before it goes really fucking weird) has a sort of anti-colonial, indigenous(ish) peoples under occupation themes that Star Wars just isn't interested in exploring. With Star Wars it's basically just "There's an evil empire, okay that's enough, let's go" vibes to OG Star Wars. Like you don't have to pay attention to the political background blurb at the beginning that serves as pasting a veneer of political intrigue at all and the story basically makes sense. It's a War story, whether or not a Monarchy is involved barely matters. It could be "Ambassador Leia" and "President Palpatine" and basically nothing would functionally change. Empire requires no monarchs to function.
Dune does come across as "The Indigenous peoples of Dune hadn't a hope until this one random outsider self insert character showed up and joined their cause and was amazing at everything and was lifted up as saviour because vague prophecy seeded by generations of matriarchal Jedi (Bene Gesserit) manipulation reasons..." It's sympathetic to indigenous peoples in a vaguely problematic for a host of familiar reasons kind of way. Like the world building is great and all but I feel like you could swap Luke Skywalker and Paul Atreidies and end up with a generally better story on both counts.
Dune has the sub-theme of tough conditions create tough people. The sand people were just waiting for the right spark.
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I somewhat agree. The theme of indigenous-ness is critical and is nicely explored in Dune while Star Wars may have too grand stakes and had to simplify the fight to Good (value lives and give freedom) vs Evil (power for me is yummy).
It sounds like you've also read the next few books..
As you probably know, Dune was made to subvert the Chosen One trope. He's "self insert" with all the magical powers and strength and intelligence and prophecy but even that couldn't help him be a "Good" guy because of his perverted intentions (avenge his family and gain power to do what's "right"). Even the movie starts off with the good guys in White and bad guys in Black. Then things get Grayer as time passes.
But don't think you could swap the protagonists. Luke and Paul are completely different characters. But you've raised a fun hypothetical! Let's see...
Luke would be less ambitious than Paul. There were a few moment where both characters had the choice to go to the 'dark' side. Luke rejected the main? call (killing his father), Paul accepted the main call (during his first duel). Assuming both have equal strength and plot armor.. If you gave Luke the same Power as Paul (foresight), would Luke just choose to die than subject the indigenous people to centuries of war? Or do as Paul did and in his way, try "free" the indigenous people?
I still think that absolute power would corrupt absolutely and Luke would probably turn into Palpatine (as Paul and and [mild spoiler] God Emperor did) if his family was directly slaughtered in front of him and he was a little more emotional. We see some of that when Luke decided to leave training with Yoda and go save his precious ones. Foresight is an anxiety inducing power... If he could see into the future, would he have stayed and allow a few sacrifices for the Greater Good? We don't know.. but that same emotional reasoning would probably indicate Luke would probably do the same as Paul and sacrifice future lives for the Now.
It would also depend on what stage of his character arc Luke was plucked from and replaced with Paul. I might even argue that Paul(/or swapped Luke) never even had free will and was just doing things because his mother chose emotion over duty and kicked off this saga.
Happy to be corrected! This was fun.
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Doesn't the story portray Paul Atreidies' messianic rise as a bad, albeit opportunistic move? I only watched the new films, but it did not feel like we were supposed to think it was a good thing.
It's complicated. Paul isn't really a good guy, but he's not really a bad guy either. He's just a dude. He's a dude who has limited vision into the future from which he cannot escape. He's not using his future vision to pick the bad choices he's trying to pick the best ones he can and the hand he's dealt kinda just sucks.
In the books, the role of the Atreides family was not to be the good guy but the necessary evil to reach the final step of saving humanity. Even Paul can't stand his own role in the story.
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If you create a story, any story, and it’s in space then it’s a complete 100% rip off of Star Wars.
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You might want to consider looking up "Jodorowsky's Dune" for a bit more insight into how... huh... let's say "influenced" Star Wars (and others for that matter) was by Dune overall.
Star wars was about how space fascisim is bad. Dune is the same but about the Space Holy Roman/Ottoman Empire.
And drugs.
Does anyone have an analysis comparing the Fremen of Frank Herbert's Dune to the the Aiel of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time?
I'm 9 books into WoT right now (its good shit) and the overlap between the Dune series is pretty interesting to say the least. Rand -> Paul, Aes Sedai -> Benne Gesserit, Aiel -> Fremen, I mean there's a dozen more comparisons I could make too. The lack of Turbo Pussies and chair dogs is a let down though.
Definitely a huge overlap but mostly just because these are classic and great tropes from English-language literature. I doubt Dune was a major inspiration for WOT.
Aes Sedai - Bene - Moirai/Weird Sisters Moiraine is literally named after the Moirai
Paul/Rand are regular chosen ones with the foreign savior theme of Lawrence/Heart of Darkness added on for good measure
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Graendal uses humans as chairs.
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