this post was submitted on 05 Feb 2024
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THE POLICE PROBLEM

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    The police problem is that police are policed by the police. Cops are accountable only to other cops, which is no accountability at all.

    99.9999% of police brutality, corruption, and misconduct is never investigated, never punished, never makes the news, so it's not on this page.

    When cops are caught breaking the law, they're investigated by other cops. Details are kept quiet, the officers' names are withheld from public knowledge, and what info is eventually released is only what police choose to release — often nothing at all.

    When police are fired — which is all too rare — they leave with 'law enforcement experience' and can easily find work in another police department nearby. It's called "Wandering Cops."

    When police testify under oath, they lie so frequently that cops themselves have a joking term for it: "testilying." Yet it's almost unheard of for police to be punished or prosecuted for perjury.

    Cops can and do get away with lawlessness, because cops protect other cops. If they don't, they aren't cops for long.

    The legal doctrine of "qualified immunity" renders police officers invulnerable to lawsuits for almost anything they do. In practice, getting past 'qualified immunity' is so unlikely, it makes headlines when it happens.

    All this is a path to a police state.

    In a free society, police must always be under serious and skeptical public oversight, with non-cops and non-cronies in charge, issuing genuine punishment when warranted.

    Police who break the law must be prosecuted like anyone else, promptly fired if guilty, and barred from ever working in law-enforcement again.

    That's the solution.

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Our definition of ‘cops’ is broad, and includes prison guards, probation officers, shitty DAs and judges, etc — anyone who has the authority to fuck over people’s lives, with minimal or no oversight.

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INFO

A demonstrator's guide to understanding riot munitions

Adultification

Cops aren't supposed to be smart

Don't talk to the police.

Killings by law enforcement in Canada

Killings by law enforcement in the United Kingdom

Killings by law enforcement in the United States

Know your rights: Filming the police

Three words. 70 cases. The tragic history of 'I can’t breathe' (as of 2020)

Police aren't primarily about helping you or solving crimes.

Police lie under oath, a lot

Police spin: An object lesson in Copspeak

Police unions and arbitrators keep abusive cops on the street

Shielded from Justice: Police Brutality and Accountability in the United States

So you wanna be a cop?

When the police knock on your door

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YouTube Shorts is throwing me in a rabbit hole of policeman seemingly overstepping the boundaries when stopping citizens for a routine check. The discussions often revolve around asking and not wanting to show their ID ("unless you can tell me what crime you accuse me of"). Is there a particular reason why they're so hesitant to present their ID to the police officer? It only seems to escalate the situation. In Belgium I don't see the harm in showing my ID when I'm stopping by a police officer. (added url as an example)

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I love it...after the incompetent bitch cop says "have a great day sir" he tells her to go fuck herself

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago

Yeah, nobody’s having a great day after getting the skin torn off their arms from aggressive handcuffing. ACAB.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago

In Belgium

Section 1 of Article 34 of the WPA specifies that police officers may check someone’s identity when that person has committed a crime or intends to enter a space where there are concerns about potential public disorder. These are known as reactive identity checks in that officers react to an event that has already taken place. The same section also mentions proactive police checks. These are permitted “if they, on the grounds of that person’s behaviour, material clues or circumstances of place or time, have reasonable grounds to think that the person being searched has tried or is prepared to commit a crime or that he/she could disturb or has disturbed public order”.

You are required to carry your identity, which can be any document, and there are limited instances the police would stop you.

It's the US, there is no expectation a person carries their ID unless they are driving, and there is a grab bag of conflicting requirements that basically mean, the more opportunity you hand them to extend the interaction, the more opportunity you give them to escalate. Ie, "defy a lawful order" or "resist arrest" when it's not clear what the order is or that you are being arrested.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Are Belgian police as dangerous as American police?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't think of the Belgian police as being dangerous. But possibly because of the difference in amount of police officers (it seems to be 13.000 in Belgium, 900.000 in USA) you can report on more wrongdoings in the USA than in Belgium, but overall (per capita) the relative amount of incidents could compare? It can come over as naive but I just couldn't understand what could go wrong by showing your ID.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago

In the American judicial system, there is an explicit presumption of innocence and equal application of the law. At least that's what's written in the US constitution.

In reality, law enforcement assumes everyone guilty of "something" and their pursuing investigation is far from equally applied. They also assume every person they interact with intends to commit violence.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

To start: if you're operating a vehicle, your right to refuse to I'd is pretty slim (they need a reasonable articulable suspicion usually, but there's a chance they have one. Ask for it.).

That said... The laws on this vary state by state. Some states do have stop and id, others do not. Everyone would do well to know the laws for where they are, if they want to refuse id. Even as a motorist, they need a reason to stop you.

Where I am, they'd need to detain me before I'm required to id (as a pedestrian). I am not allowed to lie about my name, so answering, "Mickey Mouse" could technically give them the legal ammo to require real ID (full name, birth date). For a motor vehicle stop they are required to state why they stopped me as the conversation begins. None of this, "do you know why I pulled you over?" and other pretextual stuff.

Some people know their rights and exercise them. The police are supposed to respect those rights. When they do, nothing happens, the video isn't click-worthy and it doesn't get published. I think you're seeing some selection bias.

Audit the audit, civil rights lawyer and other YT channels try to paint an accurate picture of our rights, how and when we can exercise them, and when the police go so far that someone gets paid.

I'll add: the police having a policy of documenting every interaction, and including the name of the person, does not supercede any rights given by law. They get confused or angry sometimes, but as they'd tell us, ignorance of the law is no defense.

Edits: fixed autocorrect.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for this extensive explanation. I'll be on a holiday in the USA with my family this summer. And kind of on a road trip between Washington and New York and back. With all the rights that I have ... when asked for my ID ... aren't you just going to advise me to ... ... ?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago

The answers (as I understand them) :

If you're a US citizen, it depends on the state or DC (assuming that's what you meant by Washington).

If you aren't a citizen, you don't have as many rights. Now any law enforcement officer won't know that you're not a citizen (if you aren't), but it's easiest to just provide papers upon request.

I have never refused to ID, but I've only been asked due to legal reasons like speeding or I was near a border or at customs.

In short, go with the flow, don't break the law, have fun, and enjoy your stay!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Is there a particular reason why they're so hesitant to present their ID to the police officer?

If the officer is willing to violate your rights, what else might they do? Giving them your ID allows them to waste your time running your name through their system. The more time they spend with you, the more time they have to think of some bullshit justification for why they stopped you in the first place.

People die in police custody. People have been permanently maimed and tortured while under arrest.

Know your rights, and cede none of them without protest. They're allowed to ask you to give up your rights, but they're not allowed to take them from you. The law is on your side, even if the cops aren't.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I know I posted this at the 'the police problem' community. But I thought that when pulled over by the police, giving your drivers licence, to show you're allowed to drive, doesn't do any harm. It's common practice in Belgium to check if all your 'papers' are in order. And if so, you're back on your way.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago

In America the police see themselves as apex predators of citizens. For the purposes of self preservation, it is critical a citizen recognize this reality and not be fooled. The police are trained to deceive. The police are allowed to lie to you. They are not your friend. They have chosen an adversarial role in society, any messaging to the contrary is part of their predatory behavior.

This is best illustrated by comparing what a police car looks like in America vs what a police car looks like in Belgium.

American police cars are increasing indistinctive. They are designed to catch you unaware and blend into the herd.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (3 children)

You technically don’t have to present your ID unless you’re being detained, and everyone wants to get all “MAH RIGHTS” when confronted and believing they’ve done nothing wrong.

It usually blows up in their face for sure

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Lots of states do have "stop and ID" laws. So...

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Example with the actual statute? Even Terry V Ohio doesn’t allow for identification. Just an external pat down if there is RAS. As shitty and unconstitutional as that ruling happens to be.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago

Appreciate the reply. It is important to note that even those states require reasonable articulable suspicion of an actual crime and that the person is detained under such articulable suspicion. If you invoked your 4th and 5th amendment right even under those circumstances, they would have the burden to articulate in court the specific crime and why they believed you were involved in that crime. Stop and ID is a bit misleading as it still requires specific narrow suspicion that is tied to an actual crime and the person is detained under that context.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago

So your solution is to just let the police continue to harass people?

If the people have done nothing wrong then the cop should just fuck off and leave honest hardworking people alone.

Maybe the cops could learn a little on how to be honest or hardworking either one.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

If by blows up in their face, you mean they get arrested and later get a nice payout for wrongful arrest.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

If you can afford the representation and legal battle to prove wrongful arrest in the first place, then yeah

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago

If it's blatant and on video then the lawyers will come to you and probably only ask for a percentage of the settlement.