this post was submitted on 01 Feb 2024
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Boys and men from generation Z are more likely than older baby boomers to believe that feminism has done more harm than good, according to research that shows a “real risk of fractious division among this coming generation”.

On feminism, 16% of gen Z males felt it had done more harm than good. Among over-60s the figure was 13%.

The figures emerged from Ipsos polling for King’s College London’s Policy Institute and the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership. The research also found that 37% of men aged 16 to 29 consider “toxic masculinity” an unhelpful phrase, roughly double the number of young women who don’t like it.

“This is a new and unusual generational pattern,” said Prof Bobby Duffy, director of the Policy Institute. “Normally, it tends to be the case that younger generations are consistently more comfortable with emerging social norms, as they grew up with these as a natural part of their lives.”

Link to study: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/masculinity-and-womens-equality-study-finds-emerging-gender-divide-in-young-peoples-attitudes

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I wonder how this reconciles against the other recent report of Gen Z more likely to be LGBTQ than Republican. On one hand, Republicans are the most vocal enemy of feminism and the LGBTQ+ community, but on the other hand, my anecdotal experience dealing with Gen Z dudes are that they're fucking idiot reactionaries who think "feminism" is "blue haired land whale blaming all her problems on men". I'm not here to paint any group of people with a broad brush, but again, speaking anecdotally, it seems that Gen X parents are neglectful as shit and their Gen Z sons are desperately looking for father figures elsewhere.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

One thing that may deform statistics is the interpretation of feminism.

Personally i prefer equality and I recognize that the majority of people mean equality when talking about feminism.

In almost all ideological groups theres a section of extremist that listen to the same name. Extremist often yell the loudest and say stupid, hatefull memeable stuff. The post of extremist make ripe content for opposers of the general movement to show how stupid/bad an entire group is.

You can be an otherwise very rational person if the only example of feminism you know is jk rowling then it influenced the decision.

On why its different between generation. In general i observe gen-x and boomers care alot about official definition and proper terminology which leads to narrower thinking but also less Confusion on how to perceive in unity.

Millenials and gen z tend to play More creative with language which can allow much more nuanced communication and fresh perspectives but causes different word meanings within different social groups. Misunderstanding outside of it.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Older people have had more history with the term, seeing people burn their bras in the 70s for example. My uncle, around 60, said he loved feminism because it was great when women starting not wearing bras and dressing in more revealing things haha.

I can't imagine being born after Youtube and Facebook were created. Propaganda through media is incessant and young people have been subjected to the most potent forms for their entire lives.

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Considering the kind of feminists that are extremely loud today, and how they're borderline, if not literally, misandrist... I'm not entirely surprised.

This, of course, leaves them wide open to suggestion from bad actors like Andrew Tate.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

The absolute cesspool of r/feminism is really damaging to women's rights.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

LOL people have vomited precisely what you just said for 100 years on this subject. Of course, 100 years ago, they were using the police to torture women who wanted to vote, so maybe there is progress.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

No, no they didn't. But hey, who am I to expect current day militant brainlets to be educated in history?

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

I can't say I'm surprised that people like Andrew Tate, Steven Crowder, Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro have gained quite the social media following. Society has failed a lot of young men, and the oligarchy that controls our world has a lot to answer for.

Men are disproportionately affected by a lot of the socioeconomic issues currently plaguing the Western world because despite decades of progress towards creating an egalitarian society, men are the ones who are negatively impacted if they cannot provide. Look at the US and how judicial decisions on child custody and alimony are heavily favoured towards women as a very good example of this.

And before you dispute me on this notion, can you offer any other explanation for why the biggest role model for a lot of teenage boys is some bloomy rind dick cheese who looks like a spitting image of the Stonks meme guy?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 year ago

The double edged sword with how custody is awarded is that if men are the primary breadwinner of the household, and the mother is the primary caregiver, a judge will say "okay, you spend a lot of time away from the family as it is earning money to support them, then you won't mind if we mandate that you aren't legally allowed to see your kids for 75% of the month."

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

Childless men don't have a stake in child custody, visitation, child support or spousal support so that can't be it.

I used to be sympathetic to these types of arguments until I actually gained relevant experience with the formula that gets used to calculate family support.

I have to assume you're talking about Andrew Tate. Pretty much everyone who ever pushed cryptocurrency as part of their social media sponsorships I assume is or was on the Russian take. We experienced the same exact type of messaging in 2014-2015 about how unfair life is for men when women are by default responsible for raising and providing for kids if Dad skips town or otherwise leaves the picture.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

I can’t say I’m surprised that people like Andrew Tate, Steven Crowder, Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro have gained quite the social media following.

I can. Their content sucks. It's whiny and boring and utterly tasteless. Tate's an absolute skeez. Crowder has zero swag. Peterson is an incoherent puddle. And Ben Shapiro... well... just come on, wtf is this?

And before you dispute me on this notion, can you offer any other explanation for why the biggest role model for a lot of teenage boys is some bloomy rind dick cheese who looks like a spitting image of the Stonks meme guy?

Because that's half of what YouTube / Twitch / Netflix / et al serves up anymore. These people are the dregs of modern media, but they and their promoters are everywhere. Its the same way that AM radio is the endless cesspool of senile racists whining about scary foreigners and Daytime TV is washed up fashion models pretending to have the secret to fame, fortune, and eternal youth. The lowest common denominator of mass media is overflowing with gross, juvenile bullshit.

And when you simply cannot escape the morass of filth, that's going to affect you one way or another.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

Men are disproportionately affected by a lot of the socioeconomic issues

Women are more poor than men. So, what do you mean by this?

men are the ones who are negatively impacted if they cannot provide.

What does that even mean?

judicial decisions on child custody and alimony are heavily favoured towards women

Men are more likely than women to get custody when they ask for it. Men pay more alimony on average because they are more likely to have and earn more money.

Single mothers (not single fathers) are one of the poorest groups worldwide. That goes for the USA as well.

It seems like you really bought into the angry YouTubers.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Women are more poor than men.

Men are more homeless. The median wage difference between men and women 18-34 is not significant.

What does that even mean?

Going to the first point, societally, generally women have more to fall back on. Of course it would be great if everyone can choose to work or not, but generally in a straight relationship, the only one with a real choice is the woman. Also, obviously this is controversial to say, but semi-jokingly a lot of men see being able to sell sex/nudes as a privilege for relatively easy money.

Men are more likely than women to get custody when they ask for it.

Source?

Single mothers (not single fathers) are one of the poorest groups worldwide. That goes for the USA as well.

Does that include the single fathers in prison?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Men are more homeless.

Selection bias, as homeless women have twice the mortality of their male peers. There are more living homeless men entirely because there are more dead homeless women.

societally, generally women have more to fall back on

More of what?

Men are more likely than women to get custody when they ask for it.

Fathers who fight for custody typically get it. Even 30 years ago, 94% of fathers who sought custody got sole or joint custody. Abusive fathers are especially successful. Seventy-two percent win their custody cases. In one study where both parents fought hard for custody, mothers were awarded custody just 7% of the time.

What's more damning is that In 91% of custody cases, the parents mutually decide to give custody to the mother. Fathers fight for custody in court in less than 4% of divorces. Twenty-seven percent of fathers completely abandon their children after divorce.

Does that include the single fathers in prison?

Bizarrely, yes. In the rare instances when fathers with convictions attempt to win custody, they have a better than average chance of obtaining it.

A great deal of this boils down to with the gender pay gap which favors men at virtually every income tier and along every sociological fault line. Since primary guardianship is officially a gender neutral dispute, the individual with the larger income enjoys disproportionate advantage in winning custody.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

There are many things.

For instance, I am working legally in the US, this is my third year, I had to run away feom my home in Mexico because od the narco, I didn't mess with anybody, I hardly got out just to get groceries and my job. Some narco srill burned my house.

I know 2 women with the same issue, but they came here illegally. One of them works and the other didn't. But both, in a year, are already residents. I for instance pay my taxes do everything legal and i got denied of any form of aid to change my status.

And for instance, I helped at one place where they help single mothers... all have the kids and some.od yhem still do drugs. I doubt what you say about the custody.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

Cherry picking, cherry picking and, finally, cherry picking.

Nice.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

Because their content is controversial, thus driving engagement, thus being favored by the algorithms of many social media platforms. I still get recommended some of their garbage on YouTube, despite never having watched anything remotely similar to it.

Younger people tend to be easier to influence, and they often lack the experience to smell bullshit. And the more people hear something, the more likely they are to believe it.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Yeah I saw this over on Mastodon, and there were a lot of stats folks questioning the methodology. I'm not qualified to do that, but my sons are Zoomers as are all their male friends, and they are all good feminists. This is in NW Europe, so might be a bit biased.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To be honest I don't think parents is a good source of their children's beliefs usually.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I very specifically first thought that we should have a look at the methodology to see what is going on here.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We're talking 16% vs 13%. Still a small minority. Based on what groups of people these are concentrated in, and what group you run in, it's completely plausible you don't know any of them well enough to understand this is how they feel.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Worse, depending on sample size, this might not even be a meaningful difference.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Young men/boys thinking we don’t need feminism reminds me of healthy people thinking we don’t need vaccines. Just because we’ve improved the world and made a problem less of a thing doesn’t mean we can now forget about it and move on.

There is a lot more to it than that, as evidenced by all the replies already.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It never ceases to amaze me that in almost every comment section there is a highly upvoted comment by someone who clearly didn't read the article. Or maybe they read the article and are I explicably talking about something else completely.

Even reading just the headline, I don't get how one would talk about not needing feminism anymore. It's about them thinking it has done more harm than good and/or it's now harder to be a man.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

I am talking about the similarities in how these two good things became something bad to be rejected because they are actually harmful. Became that way to a certain wacky group, at least.

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