this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2025
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what happened here?

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

On the offchance that you're actually here in good faith. The pop history belief in the west is that a bunch of unarmed innocent protestors were brutally massacred inside the square, this is false and no deaths of protestors occurred in the square. What actually went down is protestors murdered two unarmed negotiators and burned them alive sparking off things turning nasty, a military column then got ransacked and some protestors armed themselves. What followed were dozens of hours of battles across different streets in which hundreds of PLA and armed protestors died. I could post images of these burned negotiators but I'll leave that to you to look up, they're not hard to find and I don't think it adds value to a historic discussion to post the gore when what matters is the version of events.

I can do this two ways for you, I can show it with western liberal sources or I can show it with socialist sources. I'll give you both.

The Telegraph lays it out pretty reasonably in this article in my opinion, and since it's a right wing tory rag so I assume no liberals are gonna accuse it of it being "commie propaganda" lmao.

But don't just take that as the only example. How about we also look back at old articles written at the time it actually occurred?

CBS NEWS: “We saw no bodies, injured people, ambulances or medical personnel — in short, nothing to even suggest, let alone prove, that a “massacre” had occurred in [Tiananmen Square]”

BBC NEWS: “I was one of the foreign journalists who witnessed the events that night. There was no massacre on Tiananmen Square”

NY TIMES: In June 13, 1989, NY Times reporter Nicholas Kristof – who was in Beijing at that time – wrote, “State television has even shown film of students marching peacefully away from the [Tiananmen] square shortly after dawn as proof that they [protesters] were not slaughtered.” In that article, he also debunked an unidentified student protester who had claimed in a sensational article that Chinese soldiers with machine guns simply mowed down peaceful protesters in Tiananmen Square.

REUTERS: Graham Earnshaw was in the Tiananmen Square on the night of June 3. He didn’t leave the square until the morning of June 4th. He wrote in his memoir that the military came, negotiated with the students and made everyone (including himself) leave peacefully; and that nobody died in the square.

A Wikileaks cable from the US Embassy in Beijing (sent in July 1989) also reveals the eyewitness accounts of a Latin American diplomat and his wife: “They were able to enter and leave the [Tiananmen] square several times and were not harassed by troops. Remaining with students … until the final withdrawal, the diplomat said there were no mass shootings in the square or the monument.”


If instead of me using western major news sources to support my point you'd somehow still want this from my communist perspective. These three pieces are pretty good:

https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/

https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/

https://archive.ph/24zzF


As for these tanks themselves. The video is of them leaving the square, and when held up like this I think they demonstrated a degree of restraint you wouldn't see from any western military anywhere in the world.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Thank you for providing a legitimate, well thought out response instead of just reacting like so many others here. I'll read through it all here in a bit.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

sorry but your post was the embodiment of the very-intelligent/fedposting archetype.

If you wrote a polite question like "What happened in June 1989 in Tienanmen Square, is the tank man photo real?" or "What is the origin of this picture?" then you'd get a polite response.

No one is obligated to be nice to you if you're not respectful back.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (4 children)

And yall don't need to start every interaction by being a massive douchebag and acting like everyone is out get you. The actual language of my question is pretty innocuous (though, perhaps less so given the context of the instance, but still).

If I asked if it was real, I would get answers biased by belief in the events legitimacy. I'm also not going to ask what the origins are as I already know where the image comes from. By very purposely asking such a vague question, I'm openly inviting people answer with the information that they deem important to the context of this image. By asking in this way and in this instance specifically, I have the greatest chance to learn and stumble into some new information. As with all things, there are extremely polarized opinions about Tianamen Square, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Did you really think saying "I'm curious, what happened here" wasn't going to come off as smug and condescending? Did you really expect it to garner a civil and cordial response?

Like actually? What did you think our reaction would be? I have a hard time believing you didn't think you were gonna "troll" us and when we mounted a better response than you thought you decided to get pissy and start moaning about civility.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I think they were "curious" about the kind of response they would get, rather than the event itself but seeing that there are valid responses that they cant just dismiss snidly and everyone thinks they're stupid they have to coddle their bruised ego by pretending they were curious about the actual event all along. As in pretend to themselves mainly to protect against their hurt feelings.

It's a punch to the ego to be laughed at by the people you thought you were smarter than and realising you actually have no clue about what you thought would be an easy dunk does hurt.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Just as an aside, without any further comment, it's "Tiananmen". Not tia-na-men, but tian-an-men.

Tian An Men.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

my buddy says you're a pedophile and you say you're not a pedophile. the truth is likely somewhere in the middle

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

OP is about to explain that they went to Little Saint James but only for networking.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Typically untrue. The rest of your comment I agree with though, you do need to be aware that an instance like this is consistently trolled by smuglord smuglord liberals so people are on guard and view vagueness as indicative of bad-faith participation. Given that most people don't want to waste their time with someone they know is acting in bad-faith the result is hostility and easy cheap responses instead.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (9 children)

Do you think the truth typically lies at the extremes of reason? In my experience Occams Razor holds in almost every situation, especially with controversial topics like this.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

If you ever take a calculus or precalculus class, when you are testing for minima and maxima across a zone, you usually test the corners first. The wisdom therein is that you don't know for sure whether you are starting out centered on the critical point.

It's the same thing for politics. You can't assume that the observable range is equidistant from The Truth in all directions. In many cases, you're going to have an edge or a corner that is closest. Starting out by saying "we're going to define truth simply by the average of the opinions that are out there" assumes that all perspectives are equally reasonable, that the average of the masses is always right, that it does not need to evolve, and that it is immune to manipulation. All of these assumptions are deeply wrong. Using this approach, you are always going to end up defining truth by the principles of strangers, instead of developing your own principles.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Well yes because the truth is the truth and our reason is Calvinball that changes over time and space. Scientific advancement always happens at the edge of knowledge and reason. That's how it advances. You have to question the existing premise in order to move past it. You're the one moving, not reality.

Occams Razor does not mean that the truth is always in the center of reason. It's that all things being equal (aka equal evidence for all sides), the truth is the thing that requires the fewest assumptions. Your lack of awareness about the evidence (ie full video of Tienanmen Square) isn't the thing that requires the least amount of assumptions. You're just assuming you have all the information and acting on that. We're not assuming the information, we have it. So ours requires one less assumption than you.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Do you think the truth typically lies at the extremes of reason?

yeah, pretty much always. What truth lied in the middle of the geocentrism debate? Does God exist or not? Can the truth be somewhere in the middle for any of the most important questions?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I like this line of thinking, but I'm having a hard time using it to understand the phenomenon of crop circles.

Explanation 1: it was a previously unknown spacefaring species that uses giant circles to communicate.
Explanation 2: it was a couple middle aged Brits with some boards

Does Occam's Razor say that it was a couple of aliens with some boards, or it was a previously unknown advanced civilization of middle-aged British men?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

a previously unknown advanced civilization of middle-aged British men?

kombucha-disgust

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

They could be among us even now!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I know that 1+1=2 but some people think 1+1=3. So probably 1+1 is approximately 2.5 since objective truth usually lies somewhere between two ends huh.

Now you could say that you don't know enough about math to know either way and that would be fine too, but then you shouldn't have an opinion on it or say anything about math at all

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Personally I believe that Neil Armstrong only made it halfway to the moon

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Occam's Razor has nothing to do with the truth being in the middle of two arbitrarily chosen positions you pseudointellectual lib.

You're just throwing out phrases that you think make you sound smart.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Yeah I was willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt until this comment. Classic smuglord brainworms

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Invoking Occam's Razor here is conflating neutrality with simplicity which is not always the case. Most political dichotomies of opinion are social constructions which themselves have bias. While there is a kernel of truth to “the truth lies somewhere in the middle” (you should try to get a complete picture before reaching a conclusion), applying it to already-biased dichotomies and then landing in the middle is going to result in you favoring the original bias present in the construction.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I would argue it does. One extreme wants to say; "Tienanmen Square was a horrible tragedy and China/ Communism is the evilest thing in the world", likely not true, but also, neither China nor Communism have clean hands. The other extreme wants to say; "Nothing interesting happened with Tienanmen Square and the West/ Capitalism is the evilest thing in the world", equally unlikely to be true, but also, neither the West or Communism have clean hands. In this case, Occam's Razor implies that neither of these extremes is reasonable and that the true story is actually some composite of both. I'm not using Occam's Razor as a form of neutrality, merely as a mechanism for determining when a reasonable conclusion can be made.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

"Tienanmen Square was a horrible tragedy and China/ Communism is the evilest thing in the world"

is already a centrist position in the US. It's not extreme, it's mainstream.

"Nothing interesting happened with Tienanmen Square and the West/ Capitalism is the evilest thing in the world"

is a straw man and not a position many people hold.

So no, the truth is not in the middle of those two things. China doesn't hold that nothing interesting happened. China doesn't even hold that capitalism is the most evil thing. Individuals on the internet may play fast and loose with moralizing, but it's not about capitalism being evil. It's about it being exploitive and abstracted slavery. People don't engage in slavery to be mean, or because evil has possessed them, they do it because they materially benefit from it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Nothing interesting happened with Tienanmen Square

If we are your proxy for this extreme and this was your takeaway from the readings and videos you’ve been linked, I don’t know what to tell you. The June 4th Incident was the culmination of weeks of protests and has lasting impacts to this day both domestically and internationally. Chinese students are taught as much in school.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

"Reason" isn't something with extremes, normally. Events are events, the truth is in the evidence. Interpretations of the evidence can vary, but truth doesn't vary. There's nothing about being in the "middle" of two positions on what happened in a historical event that makes the median stance any more or less accurate than the stances themselves.

As an example, Iraq with WMD. The US line was that Iraq had WMD, the Iraqi line was that they didn't. The Iraqi line was 100% correct and the US line was 100% fabrication.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

But what if they 50% had them and 50% didn't? Did you consider that?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago

Schrodingers WMD

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

But what if the extremes of reason are the start and the end, and the correct position is in the middle of that

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I mean, the correct stance need not be bound to abstract spatial relations of stances

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

What was I even thinking about... Oh right, reasoning is a process. You start somewhere, reason and reach a conclusion, so the middle of that is just stopping part way through the reasoning, never reaching a conclusion.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago

Oh yea, makes sense!

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

That dude was upset about the tanks. He walked in front of them and they stopped. He climbed up onto the front one and had a conversation with the soldiers inside. Then he got down and walked away. That's what the video shows.