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vote, please (files.catbox.moe)

submitted 5 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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timemachineyeah

drives me up a wall living in a very very red district, like "no democrat is ever going to win any local election, let alone a real leftist" district, like "our school board members ran on who was the most anti-mask" red, like "I pass white supremacist signs on the way to buy weed" red

and being in the local leftist community and the guy who runs the anarchist book club and the lady who helps keep the warming shelters open and the people who marched on city hall when a local business was getting death threats for having a drag show are all members of a discord and we get on this discord and have frank discussions about how best to vote

the people who do the protests and the mutual aid and all the real work

going "okay, they're both fascists, but this one lacks ambition and seems happy to just glide in the position" or "they both suck, but this one can be reasoned with if you frame it patriotically enough" like we don't even have a democrat to vote for. we know what a vote is. we know what we hope accomplish with it. we know what it can do, and we know what it can't.

and going from those discussions to here where people think that your vote is some kind of fucking??? enabling maneuver??? as if someone isn't going to end up in that seat regardless of what you do???

we didn't build this system, we just live in it. we're just trying to survive. a vote isn't a statement of your values, it's not an endorsement, it's not a marriage contract, it's a strategic play you make to keep alive.

the biggest mistake I see leftists making is overestimating their own popularity. "well but everyone would be leftist if they just-" no, stop, 1) you can't possibly know that 2) everyone will not just

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Sure, if you really only have two shitty choices, by all means pick the one that's less shitty. That isn't what Democrats are proposing, though. They have 4 choices (or more) and are eliminating candidates based on "electability", not values.

Going back to OP's Discord group, what happens when a progressive runs for office? Do they support them? Or do they say "Sorry, you have no chance of winning here, so we're going to support the lesser fascist"?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago

Democracy isn't a sprint, it's a marathon you have to participate in for the rest of your life, every vote should be made strategically to take the next step toward whatever your goal is (and sometimes, to try to mitigate the size of a step taken backwards)

Support your candidates of choice in primaries, but if it becomes clear that they won't win, we must swallow our pride and pick the lesser of two evils, because baby steps forward (or active harm reduction) is better than nothing

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

idk, ask them?

the main thrust of the post isn’t really some nuanced argument about how to vote. it’s literally telling people to vote (for the least detrimental option) in the first place. you’re sort of expecting too much from a text that’s not really about what you are asking, if that makes sense.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I'm done being lectured.

If moderates and liberals won't allow anyone to fight fascism head on then it's not just a possibility it's a guarantee. Fascism runs on misery and this country has plenty of it. Addressing unaffordable housing, healthcare and education would take the fight out of people. When people are busy living and enjoying their lives they don't have the time or energy to worry about what somebody else is doing.

And to establishment Democrats credit, they pay lip service to addressing these things but that's about it. They claim they can't do anything without the presidency, a majority, a super majority, a super majority without any defectors. There's always an excuse on why nothing is getting done. But losing isn't an option. So if the establishment Democrats want us to believe we can't accomplish anything through traditional means for decades then guess what, it's time to try something less traditional.

Enter the rail strike, a real opportunity for Democrats to show who's side they're really on. Here's a clear cut fight between workers and corporations. Time to bring these disagreements to a head and draw a line. What do they do? Under Joe Biden's direction 44 Democrat senators vote with 36 Republican senators to block the rail strike.

Liberals and moderates praise Biden for this. They praise Biden for siding against American workers. We are not on the same side.

If liberals and moderates truly believe Trump and MAGA are a threat, if they truly believe Democracy is worth protecting then it's time to compromise with leftists and progressives. If they won't do it now they never will. Which means the choice isn't between fascism and democracy. It's between fascism now or later.

I choose now. Let's get this over with.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I truly believe that Trump and MAGA are a threat, and while I consider myself pretty left, I clearly don't meet your definition. I'm willing to compromise. So tell me, what is your plan to keep to Trump out of the White House. As long as it's not starting our own genocide of everyone we disagree with (this one will be ok though because its the leftists doing the killing) and it's at least plausible, I'm game. What's your plan?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I’m willing to compromise.

Name one material compromise Biden has made with progressives and leftists over his term. Name one situation where moderates and liberals wanted one thing, progressives and leftists wanted something else and a material decision was made in favor of leftists and progressives. There is not a single example.

Progressives and leftists are getting nothing out of this relationship.

Here's things Biden could do today:

Vow to veto any attempts to block a rail strike in his next term.
Call off Yellen and Powells war against American workers and their rising wages.
Stop forcing federal workers back to the office.

I used to include "stop sending weapons to Israel" but now he's got Congress doing that. Fucking piece of shit.

And before you say "it's too late we gotta just gotta focus on that first". Fuck. No. You know why it's too late? Because liberals and moderates fucked around for too long. Biden fucked around for too long. Fuck all of them.

Progressives and leftists cannot be both 100% responsible for Biden's loss while having a near zero, not half, not even half of a half, near zero influence on policy. You don't want to compromise with us? Fine. Elect your procorporate trash candidate on your own.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I'll premise this list of (far more than one) progressive thing Biden has done with something I'd like you to consider. It seems from your tone that you think progressives can only count something as a win if it hurts or angers the center-left. That's not the case. Now...the list:

Inflation Reduction Act, that a MINIMUM of $386B in green energy subsidies, tax credits and incentives and directs that money in a way that encourages domestic production.

$1 trillion Infrastructure package

Withdrawal of American forces from Afghanistan

Lower prescription drug prices, specifically giving government the ability to negotiate those prices and capping others.

Millions in student debt relief

Thousands of simple drug possession pardons

$1 trillion in covid relief directly to families

Lower inflation than most of the western world

Doubled the child tax credit

Expanded gun background checks

Largest number of progressive judicial appointments in loving memory

CHIPS act

Repealed DOMA and ensured states must recommend same-sex marriages

ECRA takes away one avenue Trump used in his attempted overthrow of the government.

Rolled back racist and xenophobic travel restrictions

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Inflation Reduction Act, that a MINIMUM of $386B in green energy subsidies, tax credits and incentives and directs that money in a way that encourages domestic production.

You mean the BBB stripped of everything progressives and leftists were excited about? It was a win for moderates and liberals. For leftists and progressives it was just another slap in the face.

It seems from your tone that you think progressives can only count something as a win if it hurts or angers the center-left.

So when you said "I’m willing to compromise" what you really meant is you'd like the opportunity to do some more finger wagging. Do you realize how pathetic this behavior is? You are offering nothing but speaking to me as if a stern lecture is going to whip me into shape. Are we on the verge of losing our democracy or not? Wake the fuck up and start offering real compromises to leftists and progressives or lose to MAGA. Make a choice.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Frederick Douglas wasn't allowed to vote.

He worked hard for candidates who couldn't promise to abolish slavery, because Douglas knew that a tiny step forward was vastly better than doing nothing.

A lesser known hero was Dashiell Hammett. You might have heard of his books, 'The Thin Man' or 'The Maltese Falcon.' There have been dozens of movies based on his book, 'Red Harvest.' In 1941 he was richer and more famous than Stephen King is today.

Hammett supported Left causes with his money and his actions. When WW2 broke out he was a triple 4-F. Too old; a veteran of WW1; and he'd been gassed and had a medical discharge. Hammett knew all about America's Jim Crow laws, and the imprisonment of the Japanese Americans, and everything else. He volunteered, and fought hard, to get into the Army, because he hated Nazis that much.

Mention those guys when someone tells you that they can't vote for the Dems in 2024.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago

You can disagree with the methods Frederick Douglass deployed in achieving meaningful change, or even believe they would have only worked in his time period, but to practice actual historical revisionism is wild.

Douglass was loud and proud, and fought against progressives at the time who did not make the correct choices. He wasn't a lesser of two evils voter, he was an abolitionist.

Again, you can make the argument that we have different conditions now, but do not misrepresent historical radicals to suit your narrative.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

What?? Frederick Douglas had a famously contentious relationship with Lincoln. He wrote scathing indictments about him in his paper "Douglass' Monthly" and traveled the country agitating for Lincoln to abolish slavery. He even endorsed the dump-lincoln movement during the re-election campaign over his reconstruction plan. It was exactly his raving against Lincoln during his re-election that brought them together, because Lincoln needed Douglas's support to win. It's fucking wild to see someone name drop Douglas in defense of an incumbent candidate facing scrutiny.

He didn't 'work hard for candidates who couldn't promise to abolish slavery', he worked hard to agitate them into action. This kind of revisionist history is fucking infuriating, especially when it's used to undercut voices trying to push for progress.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

So, me telling people to vote for less than perfect candidates instead of staying home is a block to progress?

Or are you saying you think my single line about Douglas emcompases his entire career?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

People loudly critiquing Biden and threatening to withhold support is an effort to push for progress, and condemning those people and their method instead of joining their protest to bring the progress being pushed for absolutely undercuts that message. It is exactly what MLK and Malcom X and Frederick Douglass wrote about repeatedly.

No progress has ever been made in the US by silently resigning to the lesser of evils, it has only ever been brought by loud, disruptive agitation by dedicated civil activists (including Douglass).

Or are you saying you think my single line about Douglas emcompases[sic] his entire career?

I'm saying your use of his name is nearly a 1-1 reversal of his actual historical significance. Frederick Douglass himself fought against a 'less than perfect candidate' until that candidate capitulated. I think it is safe to suggest that the abolition of slavery would not have happened without Douglass' loud opposition to Lincoln.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

And so far, Biden seems to be a candidate that is able to moved further left by agitation. Keep pushing him, but we still gotta vote. He's the convincable candidate. I doubt Douglass was saying shit like "this Lincoln guy isn't perfect...let's just elect Breckinridge and get it over with"

[–] [email protected] -1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I doubt Douglass was saying shit like “this Lincoln guy isn’t perfect…let’s just elect Breckinridge and get it over with”

That's a straw man. Nobody is saying that about Trump.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

https://lemmy.world/comment/8894540

Its one of the top comments

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I love how every discussion completely avoids the topic of people running against these far right fascists themselves. There's always a ludicrous number of scapegoat reasons why not from people of all backgrounds.

It's forgotten about all the time. Also, I'm in a state where you're not supposed to know what political affiliation your local representatives have. It's only for state government and higher that run partisan divides on the ballot.

It ensures that you're voting for someone who you'd potentially like and their actual issue stances rather than their political affiliation.

You'd be surprised how many common issues people bridge on despite them being on crazy ends of the Democrat/Republican spectrum.

Personally I think it's an easy plot to get more Republicans voted in at the local level, but in reality everyone can run. It's all practically a part time job or even a retirement job for most. And you often only need hundreds of votes. Meanwhile think how many times you've gotten up/down voted into oblivion here or on reddit. You'd be surprised how easy it is to run a local campaign with a free website and making sure to show up for candidate debates/round tables.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 months ago

I just want to counter with, I actually reached out to a progressive election group that's supposed to help left leaning people get elected into local office positions after being confused by some of the requirements of getting on the ballot and was straight up told I was not wealthy enough to even consider running.
That unless I had a wealthy parent or a church group that I could collect more funds from, I shouldn't even bother but just donate to them to get someone better and wealthier elected in my place.

When your barrier to entry isn't even just knowledge of the system, and having networking to assist you but literally the amount of money in your bank account, the concept of running against the people who will not only crush you and your campaign but likely hurt your non political career and livelihood of earned capital, then doing so becomes less of an option.

I then supported a person I agreed with for a Legal position who was literally a public defender and he lost to a guy who played football in college with no history in law or civil service.

It might be easy to run a campaign and I might have a slightly more skewed representation as I am closer to a larger city but when even the left side is looking at how mucho ey they can make on running campaigns and not how likely they are to help shift policy then we are royally fucked on the concept of representation by the people.

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