These types were always never actually poor, and their stories either heavily embellished or borrowed.
this post was submitted on 24 Mar 2024
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Yes, we should carry our burden. Accept the suffering that goes with it, but a danger lurks here, that of a subtle reversal. Don't fall in love with your suffering. Never presume that your suffering is, in itself, a proof of your authenticity. Renunciation of pleasure can easily turn into pleasure of renunciation itself.
Oof. Growing up poor can damage you for life, there’s so much research on this (easy to google scholar). Poverty trauma is real, and takes a while to grow out of even if you “make it”. There are people who get lucky, and they like to pretend they made it out of poverty because of some talent or whatever, but the hard truth no one admits is that there are lots of talented people who languish in the quicksand of poverty, and die in obscurity. I hate the meritocracy myth, it’s such a damaging fantasy.
If your only justification for letting others suffer needless hardship is, “I experienced the same, and I turned out fine”, then spoiler alert: you did not, in fact, “turn out fine”.
this is more evident in people who advocate for spanking children. "i was spanked and i turned out fine." yeah nah.
I remember my manager at one of my jobs in the past complaining about the minimum wage going up because it would mean her pay stagnating. almost all of us regular employees were on welfare. I mean for fucks sake I think I literally had package noodles for dinner that night for the fourth or fifth night in a row after work.
I do kinda think my kids benefited somewhat from seeing me go to school and get a better job while they were little. We had this arc from dirt poor to ok while the older ones were kids. The problem is that they don't get the same deal. Sure, everyone should feel like hard work pays off, but can't, and it's not because they had resources (or didn't ) growing up. It's because the economy is even more rigged now than it was
I think there is an amount of humility that kids could benefit from while growing up and developing, but once they're actually in the workforce the old timers can get fucked. The thing is it becomes harder to empathize with suffering if you've never experienced any of it, but that's more of an argument against excessive wealth and inequality.
I'd argue that perhaps you don't have the sense-memory of its effects, but you also lack the moral relativism of trying to justify your own pain to yourself. All those people saying 'well I've [experienced something unacceptable] and I'm just fine' seem pretty empathy-poor. Being forced to swallow your pride as a child does a lot to fuck with your sense of right and wrong.
I would argue that you're incapable of seeing my point of view precisely because of the aforementioned lack of empathy. Of course, both of us would be making wild assumptions about the other person and generally being a bag of dicks for making demeaning statements about the other in an attempt to brush off their reasoning.
You're assuming I haven't suffered. I'm saying I don't think suffering grants you empathy, that's just one reaction you might have, many just choose not to emotionally engage with the source of their pain.
Look at that, you got halfway through my comment before replying.
I'm... Not picking a fight with you? I just feel differently?
I'll admit I have been very rude to you, because you came into this conversation misconstruing my statements as "people should suffer the same economic hardships as I have" which is not at all my stance. Never was. That would be the literal parody stance in the article above. So you don't feel differently to me, you've explicitly stated that you feel differently to the metaphorical man made of hay and farmers clothes held up by warped lumber.
Did this clear up your confusion? Can you go continue talking to yourself elsewhere, now?
My argument was simply that empathy is not the result of hardship, but of personal growth. I meant none of it as a personal attack, I'm sorry if my wording was ambiguous. It's all good dude.
Your actual stance was:
I’d argue that perhaps you don’t have the sense-memory of its effects, but you also lack the moral relativism of trying to justify your own pain to yourself. All those people saying ‘well I’ve [experienced something unacceptable] and I’m just fine’ seem pretty empathy-poor. Being forced to swallow your pride as a child does a lot to fuck with your sense of right and wrong.
If you want to turn that around and have a decent conversation now then I'm afraid it's too late for you. You've lost all credibility in my eyes.
Buddy, that's the same point, that pain fucks with you and it takes distance and introspection to grow from it, otherwise you wither into self-pity and callousness.
...isn't the supposed goal of every generation to make things easier for the future ones? Trying to eradicate poverty so children dont have to go through awful childhood trauma? What is the problem here? It's like old people bitching about "participation trophies" and "mental health days" etc.. BITCH, you actually invented those practices; Better accomodations, more respect, better personal time, the right to even have an opinion...y'all actually worked to make these little things commonplace, but can't appreciate it because someone isn't thanking you personally on the reg..
(I ONLY mean literally -any- generation other than Boomers... they're just a fussy mess all over the place)
In my experience, boomers will definitely say this but only mean it for their kids (assuming they don't get disowned for breaking the boomer's idea of normal). Psychologically speaking, there's a sinful lack of empathy there, but they won't hear of it.
I wish any generation had that sort of goal. It's more like 5% of intellectuals creating a better world for a vast majority of selfish hedonists.
Capitalism and the post war equilibrium was the end of history. What more would they want to provide their children except a very vivid and specific fantasy about how the world will never be bad in the future?
that meme with two branching paths
"growing up in poverty"
"developing extreme empathy for others in difficult situations"
"becoming a miserable bastard who just wishes poor people would go away"
Most people saying this shit were born on the third base with a silver spoon in their ass to senator's wife.
Rest are peasants who got rich and now feel the pressure to "fit in" with their new "friends"
Bootlickers is a separate discussion all together.
I worked with an old timer who hated that young kids got hired with vacations and days off and high pay. He'd always say back when he started working he was treated like a slave and now kids are just handed everything he earned!
I always got the feeling he didn't want to admit he believed in a lie and was exploited. There's no way I could have demanded fair treatment! I needed to suffer! Everyone needs to suffer!
Old boomer I worked with was pissed that new hires get paid $60k and he was lucky he was making like $4 an hour at his first real job in like 1970s and NEVER COMPLAINED.
And I called out that he's complaining right now and he just made a hissy fit and left.
There was an older gop congressman complaining about the proposed $15/hr minimum wage, saying when he was young he made $4/hr and it was plenty. Someone did the math and his $4/hr was equivalent to $26/hr now.
If your coworker was making $4/hr in 1970, he was making the equivalent of $32/hr in 2024, or roughly 66k/year. He should probably shut the fuck up about starting 6k/year above what kids do 50 years later.
"Poverty never did us harm" Says generation of parents who criticise anyone who relents from 40+ hour toil for lower wages than their own.
Rings similar to “My daddy beat me and I turned out fine,” says man who considers it okay to beat children
Woah woah woah. Beating and spanking at two totally different things. Just because I hit my kids...wait. Okay. Uh. Just because I discipline them by slapping their....okay, yeah....I guess they are the same thing. But it's totally fine, because I grew up fine. I think?
Look at me, boy... I am the Daddy now!
Doing this for your own good!!!
Goddamn this is a good one
Oh, look my father.