Lol, 39 comments on vegantheoryclub, 26 when viewed from hexbear, over a hundred on .ml, the .world crowd is upset.
this post was submitted on 27 Apr 2025
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Liberals often call Leftists excluding liberals from the Left "purity testing," as though the difference is merely in quantitative degrees, rather than qualitative. If the difference between Leftists and libetals is indeed merely quantitative, wanting the same thing but in greater or lesser extents, then the Liberals would be correct, however opposition to Capitalism itself and support for Socialism fundamentally represents a qualitative shift.
For Leftists, Social Democracy, or Welfare Capitalism, isn't actually a solution. The countries seen as "success stories" like the Nordics rely on Imperialism, they aren't closed loop economies. Further, their conditions are deteriorating as wealth concentrates. Leftists therefore aren't letting "perfect" be the enemy of "good," it's that Liberalism is built on a brutal system of international plunder, and is on a death spiral as liberal countries increasingly pivot more to the right. Climate Change is still an existential threat. Liberalism isn't a solution.
That's why there's friction between progressive liberals and Leftists.
Liberals often call Leftists excluding liberals from the Left “purity testing,”
Far more often than not, what I see is a Liberal electoralist showing up at a Leftist direct action event and saying "Please vote for my favorite guy" and getting told to fuck off. This is inevitably because their favorite guy just endorsed the "$50B for More Gaza Genocides Act of 2025" and then pissed all over the PRO Act, the GND, and student debt relief as unaffordable boondoggles that would hurt working class people.
Then the liberal calls them antisemitic Russian bots who love the Chinese Communist Party more than their own mothers, storms off, and discretely makes a call to ICE to raid their activist clubhouse. A week later, they're online complaining about how Leftists are too divisive and hate freedom.
For Leftists, Social Democracy, or Welfare Capitalism, isn’t actually a solution.
I think there are an enormous number of Leftists who - when presented with a solid mix of social democratic reforms and civil rights protections - are happy enough to get on a progressively liberal bandwagon. What I haven't seen is progressive liberalism at the head of the Democratic Party. Far more often than not, its the same crop of corporate goons and inter-party bureaucratic careerist worms pushing "Business First" economic policy and white nationalist social policy, regardless of who is in the White House. The only real difference is whether you get a weepy Samantha Powers or an ice-chewing Steve Bannon providing the PR for the latest wedding party bombing run or surveillance state blank check.
Show me some actual fucking Social Democracy to get behind. Show me some Welfare Capitalism that isn't means-tested and gatekept to the point of being functionally worthless to any American within spitting distance of the poverty line. Leftists can't be lured into the waiting arms of a plutocrat friendly Mixed Economy if all anyone offers is a bigger DHS and $20k market-interest loans to three-year-old minority owned small businesses.
Liberalism is built on a brutal system of international plunder, and is on a death spiral as liberal countries increasingly pivot more to the right. Climate Change is still an existential threat. Liberalism isn’t a solution.
Even the most successful communist states weren't above indulging in extraction industry and sloppy emissions standards. Hell, both the USSR and the CCP were notoriously shit on environmental standards all through the 70s and 80s. It took a big internal backlash within the Chinese proletariat to get mayors, governors, and eventually national leaders to recognize the threat of environmental degradation to long term social cohesion. And Russians never got a chance to learn environmentalism, because they were Shock Doctrine'd into a Saudi style petro state.
Still debatable whether Chinese bureaucrats have come around on overseas extraction, too. Certainly, the domestic labor practices vary heavily by industry. And Chinese labor expats are as abused as anyone from the Global South.
But it does appear that these big seemingly rigid and overly-bureaucratic communist systems are receptive to some demands for reform. The ship is large and slow. The progress is gradual. Whether or not we'll see big socialist states fully divest from fossil fuels and extend labor rights beyond their more privileged labor sectors in time to save the planet is speculative at best. But they do seem to be moving in the right direction.
Liberals seem to be collapsing back into a 19th century state of labor and ecology. Even in defiance of economic and social pressures, there is this ideological impulse towards degraded working conditions and deteriorating ecology. As someone who grew up in a deeply neoliberal neighborhood, it seems to defy the bedrock theories of liberal politics. All these pressures arrayed against it, and the so-called technocratic pragmatists are on a total dogmatic bender, intent on making the worst decisions possible in outright defiance of reason, popular opinion, and profit motive.
How can any Leftist stand behind that?
I'm not American but I probably would have voted Democrat if I was.
However, Democrats who are more mad at leftists voting third party than they're mad at republicans or their own fucking party that simply could not be bothered to stop bombing children to gain the left-wing vote: Go fuck yourselves.
Anyone who didn't vote against fascism is somewhat to blame.
I've been voting against fascism since '96 and I keep being told to vote for the lesser of two fascisms instead.
Dividing the left wouldn't matter if we used a more representative voting system. One that gave people the freedom to vote how they want and still have their vote count if their preference didn't win. Voters should be able to transfer their vote how they wish and stay represented. To have their vote count no matter what.
Why don't blue states switch away from First-past-the-post voting? Republicans aren't in power, they could easily make this change. Don't they believe in democracy? Or do prefer this undemocratic hostage situation that hands the republicans power repeatedly?
Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
Don't they believe in democracy? Or do prefer this undemocratic hostage situation that hands the republicans power repeatedly?
It's the second one. They all ultimately get paid by the same people, so that's who's interests they're actually looking out for.
Alternative voting systems have in practice been proven useless, whether in South Korea, Japan, Australia, and many other capitalist dictatorship countries that use it. It might make bribery a bit more expensive, since there are more candidates to buy off, and more political advertising necessary, but it hasn't fixed anything.
The root problem is capital standing above political power. And that can't be undone using it's own platform.
They're useless because the capital powers that be actively try to misinform the public on preferential voting (As part of a larger attack on education to keep a complicit population)
If I had a dollar every time I heard someone tell me I'm throwing away my vote for preferencing a minor party that has no hope of winning I'd probably have enough money to bribe a politician into making some decent fucking policy
You're right that it doesn't solve much but the two party system in the US is particularly terrible. Fundamental change is a lot harder to achieve than changing voting systems and even with a socialist state we'd want one of these, so I think there's no point opposing it even if it isn't a panacea
Electoral reform not only doesn't address root causes, it doesn't even treat the symptoms. It hasn't prevented australia or japan from having far right governments, hasn't returned land to indigenous peoples, hasn't done anything against inequality, hasn't empowered poorer peoples. All it does is make the political bribery slightly more expensive.
At a deeper level, representative elections always result in an oligarchy. The wealthy / economically dominant classes are the only ones who have enough money / prestige to finance their campaigns and win the popularity contest. It makes any political system based on elections nothing more than political theatre.
This is basic stuff even the ancient greeks knew, and communists learned through trial and error, yet liberals in the 21st century can't wrap their heads around it.
All it does is make the political bribery slightly more expensive.
I disagree, i think it makes it possible for 3rd parties to succeed, maybe not in practice, but at least theoretically, which is a worthwhile change. But let's grant that that's all it does... that's still a good thing and not worth opposing.
At a deeper level, representative elections always result in an oligarchy. The wealthy / economically dominant classes are the only ones who have enough money / prestige to finance their campaigns and win the popularity contest. It makes any political system based on elections nothing more than political theatre.
Yup, I agree with all this, but i don't see it as a reason to oppose better election systems.
I disagree, i think it makes it possible for 3rd parties to succeed, maybe not in practice, but at least theoretically, which is a worthwhile change.
Let me give you example i know, Poland. It have on the face value much better electoral system than USA nad lo and behold, 17 political parties and 49 independents got elected to sejm! But each and every single one of them is neoliberal and EU and or/US bootlicker, there was nobody else to choose except open nazis. Dessalines is completely right.
Better then more then half being fascists
They are all fascist, just not very scratched yet, but they all vote for supporting the neobanderites.
Lol the neobanderites huh, sounds like exactly what Russia would say, "odd."
Preventing Russia from shamelessly land grabbing Ukraine isn't "supporting neoanderites"
Agreed. Let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Even if it ONLY makes bribery more expensive, is that not a good thing?
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