Capitalism's death toll : memes

[–] [email protected] 21 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (2 children)

The Chinese communism revolution killed a shit lot of peoples. I hate capitalism but you have to be objective .also there were less comunism countries to begin with so yeah you can do what you want with statistics but its worth nothing more than a cry/Chad wojack

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (1 children)

You're literally blaming communists for the deaths of a civil war with multiple factions and you're compaining about being objective lmao. Are you even aware of the conditions that led to the civil war in China? These events do not happen in a vacuum you know?

[+] [email protected] -8 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Actually I'm blaming China for thinking they could kill birds without repercussions. Turns out, that kills people. Like, millions of people. But capitalism bad bc reasons

/thread

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 hour ago

Máo was particularly annoyed by the Eurasian Tree Sparrow (Passer montanus, 树麻雀) part of the diet of which was grain. Chinese scientists had calculated that each sparrow consumed 4.5kg of grain each year — and that for every million sparrows killed, there would be food for 60,000 people. Armed with these statistics, Máo launched the Great Sparrow Campaign to address the problem.

[…]

The campaign against the sparrows was finally terminated in late 1959 when the Academy of Sciences leaders highlighted the findings of scientists such as Zhu Xi and Zheng Zuoxin. Zhu and Zheng had autopsied the digestive systems of sparrows and found that three-quarters of the contents were harmful insects and only one-quarter was human food. This showed that sparrows were beneficial for humans.

On this advice from the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Máo declared a complete halt to the Great Sparrow Campaign, replacing sparrows with “bed bugs” in the “Four Pests” campaign. Suddenly sparrows were not just protected but the domestic population was supplemented by imports of sparrows from [Soviet] Russia!

Eventually, after several years of poor crop yields, the situation began to improve. The number of people who starved in the 1958–1961 famine is disputed — and it’s impossible to say how much of the disaster was caused by the extermination of sparrows — but there can be no doubt that this episode is a stark lesson about the unintended consequences of human interference into natural ecosystems.

(Source.)

[–] [email protected] 20 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

If we are to be 100% objective, the Chinese Revolution also saved millions. Life expectancy doubled, and hundreds of millions have been lifted out of poverty. We also know that the Black Book of Communism has long been debunked, it included made up numbers, Nazis killed during World War II as victims of Communism, and non-births as deaths.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

We also know that the Black Book of Communism has long been debunked

According to Wikipedia, even a few of its own co-authors have denounced it, saying the main author was obsessed with inflating the numbers.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 hours ago

Yep, it's a notoriously bad book.

[+] [email protected] -11 points 18 hours ago (2 children)

Didn't communist China have that bad habit of genocide for a while?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 hours ago

They genocided opium yes.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

no

[–] [email protected] 8 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Well that clears that right up.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 14 hours ago

glad to help

[–] [email protected] 6 points 16 hours ago

Oh ok

[–] [email protected] 17 points 19 hours ago

As expected this made libs here seething. Spectre haunts again lmao.

[+] [email protected] -12 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (3 children)

Provided you say that russia / china are in fact not communist, what would be a real existing (or past) communist country in which a large amount of people have lived?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Provided you say that russia / china are in fact not communist

The capitalist Russian Federation was formed in the 90s (leading to the economic disaster and the desperation that allowed Putin to rise to power). Russia is literally not, in any way, a socialist state for 35 years now.

The former Soviet Union, similarly to China today, was ruled by a communist party. This means the government is trying to move towards socialism, but it does not imply they've established a socialist mode of production - the goal of the socialist movement. This is a big source of ambiguity and confusion when people try to argue if countries "are/aren't socialist", that's too vague, and even then you can't just tell by the current situation - a government or society can follow a school or thought or ideology (socialist theory) before it achieves its goals (a socialist mode of production). "Communist" can refer to either the social movement (SU and PRC were obviously that) or the politico-economic reality (obviously neither has achieved that, let alone a socialist MoP),

Economies like China's are a big source of debates among socialist theorists about whether it's state capitalist, communist, or some mixed hybrid economy. Their economy has departed from capitalism-as-we-know-it, but still have the core features (capital, private property). But, regardless of their economy, they're clearly a party trying to achieve communism, and therefore the PRC is a communist state that hasn't achieved a communist mode of production.

TL;DR: Until we ask more specific questions, someone can say these countries are communist, someone else can say they're not, and both are correct answers.

There are pre-industrial societies (including some like Zapatista territory in Chiapas, Mexico with 300,000 people) which some would call socialist or even communist, but I don't think they're worth bringing up when discussing whole modern countries - their situations aren't as applicable to our conditions.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 hours ago

How westerners decide what they accept as communist:

US foreign policy

[–] [email protected] 20 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Russia is no longer guided by Communist leadership, but both the PRC and former USSR are examples of countries led by Communists, with Socialist systems. Same with Cuba, the DPRK, Vietnam, Laos, and more.

[+] [email protected] -7 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Cuba seems to be a great country, people there most definitely have great lives. Freedom_of_the_press_in_Cuba Elections in cuba

Laos has been governed by the Lao People's Revolutionary Party, under which non-governmental organisations have routinely characterised the country's human rights record as poor, citing repeated abuses such as torture, restrictions on civil liberties and persecution of minorities.

laos

human rights vietnam

DPRK = north korea

Sure are great countries you listed there...

For the record i dont want to doubt that marxism would be a nice experience but the lack of non ass, real countries makes me do so

If its so much better there how come you dont live there?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

Linking a bunch of Wikipedia pages isn't really a point, especially with propaganda outlets like HRW and Amnesty International featured prominently as sources. A country being Socialist doesn't mean it's a perfect wonderland, just that public ownership is the principle aspect of its economy.

By and large, though, these countries do much better than Capitalist peer countries, with higher life expectancies, literacy rates, lower poverty rates, and more. Further, they are usually the targets of large sanctions and embargoes, and subject to constant western propagandizing and myth making.

If you have a specific thing you're curious about, we can go in depth and try to separate fact from fiction, or contextualize them. If not, and you're just going to call countries "ass" because they protect their economies from US financial Capital, then there's not much to discuss.

And I'd be down to live in China for a few years, or Vietnam, for sure. Wouldn't want to move away from my family for the long run though.

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