If this thread is at all representative of how left-leaning Europeans think, then... uh... y'all are fucked. The proto-fascism here can not result in anything else other than Trump/Orban clones taking power all over Europe. I'm not trying to attack you, but You the People need to do something about this before it's too late.
this post was submitted on 01 Apr 2025
207 points (87.6% liked)
Europe
5619 readers
1421 users here now
News and information from Europe 🇪🇺
(Current banner: La Mancha, Spain. Feel free to post submissions for banner images.)
Rules (2024-08-30)
- This is an English-language community. Comments should be in English. Posts can link to non-English news sources when providing a full-text translation in the post description. Automated translations are fine, as long as they don't overly distort the content.
- No links to misinformation or commercial advertising. When you post outdated/historic articles, add the year of publication to the post title. Infographics must include a source and a year of creation; if possible, also provide a link to the source.
- Be kind to each other, and argue in good faith. Don't post direct insults nor disrespectful and condescending comments. Don't troll nor incite hatred. Don't look for novel argumentation strategies at Wikipedia's List of fallacies.
- No bigotry, sexism, racism, antisemitism, islamophobia, dehumanization of minorities, or glorification of National Socialism. We follow German law; don't question the statehood of Israel.
- Be the signal, not the noise: Strive to post insightful comments. Add "/s" when you're being sarcastic (and don't use it to break rule no. 3).
- If you link to paywalled information, please provide also a link to a freely available archived version. Alternatively, try to find a different source.
- Light-hearted content, memes, and posts about your European everyday belong in [email protected]. (They're cool, you should subscribe there too!)
- Don't evade bans. If we notice ban evasion, that will result in a permanent ban for all the accounts we can associate with you.
- No posts linking to speculative reporting about ongoing events with unclear backgrounds. Please wait at least 12 hours. (E.g., do not post breathless reporting on an ongoing terror attack.)
- Always provide context with posts: Don't post uncontextualized images or videos, and don't start discussions without giving some context first.
(This list may get expanded as necessary.)
Posts that link to the following sources will be removed
- on any topic: RT, news-pravda:com, GB News, Fox, Breitbart, Daily Caller, OAN, sociable:co, citjourno:com, brusselssignal:eu, europesays:com, geo-trends:eu, any AI slop sites (when in doubt please look for a credible imprint/about page), change:org (for privacy reasons)
- on Middle-East topics: Al Jazeera
- on Hungary: Euronews
Unless they're the only sources, please also avoid The Sun, Daily Mail, any "thinktank" type organization, and non-Lemmy social media. Don't link to Twitter directly, instead use xcancel.com. For Reddit, use old:reddit:com
(Lists may get expanded as necessary.)
Ban lengths, etc.
We will use some leeway to decide whether to remove a comment.
If need be, there are also bans: 3 days for lighter offenses, 7 or 14 days for bigger offenses, and permanent bans for people who don't show any willingness to participate productively. If we think the ban reason is obvious, we may not specifically write to you.
If you want to protest a removal or ban, feel free to write privately to any of the mods: @[email protected], @[email protected], or @[email protected].
founded 10 months ago
MODERATORS
Going to need another source than intercept to believe this story. They have a history of sensationalization or leaving important details out.
No they do not. The Intercept has been incredibly reliable over the past two years.
load more comments
(2 replies)
The article is borderline. Because it suggests that the people would ONLY be deported because they protested. But, as it says in the article, they SHOULD be deported because they have committed criminal offences. And criminal offences are not just murders or rapes.
And yes, this is exactly what has been demanded for months: Foreign offenders should be deported more quickly and less ruthlessly. Especially if they come from safe countries. Here, for example, Ireland. The fact that these offences were committed in connection with protests doesn't provide any protection, and I find it extremely sensational to even begin to compare this with what is happening in the USA.
this is exactly what has been demanded for months
Demanded by whom exactly? And if you say SPD, CxU, and FDP, please look a bit deeper where that demand came from originally.
Demanded by whom exactly
Many people from **all **political spectrum, especially after attacks like the one just before the last general election.
The call for deportations comes from exactly one extreme side of political world views. The fact that a socially and financially(!) disastrous populist bullshit "solution" like deportations seeped so far into the German mainstream is at best worrying.
The call for deportations comes from exactly one extreme side of political world views.
While I agree with you that especially the AfD is keen on deportations in a scale as big as possible, wouldn't you agree that a system that allows for - please excuse the technical terms - inflow must also have a mechanism of outflow? I.e. deportations in itself are a 'necessary evil'?
I do think we'd do well to question whether a deportation system makes sense overall. To which I am not going to be able to produce a definitive answer here. But as a society we should absolutely try to look at the negatives that deportations bring with themselves vs. e.g. prison sentences for actual offenders and better social and integration services. Instead, our political discourse has moved toward enabling mass deportations and toward making it impossible to fight deportations.
Also, do remember, that without immigration, all Western societies would be shrinking fast, endangering social systems built on society-wide contribution.
I do think we’d do well to question whether a deportation system makes sense overall.
To regularly question the applied mechanisms in our society is something I'd also agree to. Also, I acknowledge the hardships deportations can impose, hence I think it is a tool that should only be used with consideration and absolutely not in the way e.g. the AfD wants to use it.
I also absolutely agree with you that we are dependent on immigration and also immensely benefit from it. But I also think that in order for something like our immigration system to retain the trust of the people and to function properly, it must have the possibility to be a 'breathing' system instead of a one way-only. That means also having the tool to have people leave again. Trying to abolish the rights to hospitality for a host entirely will only see the people flock to those parties that seek to detonate the migration system as a whole.
And I guess we both agree that this would be the worst outcome of all.
load more comments
(2 replies)
The article is borderline.
Yes, there is a very apparent spin. There is much emphasis on the facts that "almost none" of the allegations have been brought before a criminal court and no-one of them has been convicted, while only a few lines earlier/later also stating that a conviction is not needed for a deportation under German migration law (but it also isn't a free-for-all for the state and that proportionality has to be observed!).
Hence, should the state decide to deport them, this is something they would do instead of charging them before court.
Some of the allegations are minor. Two, for example, are accused of calling a police officer “fascist” — insulting an officer, which is a crime.
Well, calling a member of the German state apparatus a "fascist" is not only - for obvious reasons - a very dumb idea but also something I - and especially them - wouldn't necessarily consider "minor". Also, it is, despite long existing layman's opinions, not a crime to insult an officer, but to insult a person. It is as punishable insulting an officer as anybody else.
Did you read the same article?
None of the four has been convicted of any crimes.
Each of the four protesters faces separate allegations from the authorities, all of which are sourced from police files and tied to pro-Palestine actions in Berlin.
The only event that tied the four cases together was the allegation that the protesters participated in the university occupation, which involved property damage, and alleged obstruction of an arrest — a so-called de-arrest aimed at blocking a fellow protesters’ detention. None of the protesters are accused of any particular acts of vandalism or the de-arrest at the university. Instead, the deportation order cites the suspicion that they took part in a coordinated group action. (The Free University told The Intercept it had no knowledge of the deportation orders.)
All four are accused, without evidence, of supporting Hamas, a group Germany has designated as a terrorist organization.
All four have, for the meantime, been ordered to leave Germany by April 21, 2025, or face forcible deportation.
Yes, i have:
Under German migration law, authorities don’t need a criminal conviction to issue a deportation order
The only event that tied the four cases together was the allegation that the protesters participated in the university occupation, which involved property damage, and alleged obstruction of an arrest
Some, but not all, of the allegations would correspond to criminal charges in Germany; almost none of them have been brought before a criminal court.
Two, for example, are accused of calling a police officer “fascist” — insulting an officer, which is a crime. Three are accused of demonstrating with groups chanting slogans like “From the river to the sea, Palestine Will be Free” — which was outlawed last year in Germany — and “free Palestine.” Authorities also claim all four shouted antisemitic or anti-Israel slogans, though none are specified.
Two are accused of grabbing an officers’ or another protesters’ arm in an attempt to stop arrests at the train station sit-in.
None of this sounds to me like 4 people who simply took part peacefully in a protest.
The only event that tied the four cases together was the allegation that the protesters participated in the university occupation, which involved property damage, and alleged obstruction of an arrest
I highlighted it already. Not sure why you are trying to quote other paragraphs out of context. Here it is again
None of the protesters are accused of any particular acts of vandalism or the de-arrest at the university
Under German migration law, authorities don’t need a criminal conviction to issue a deportation order
Okay clearly you are not even interested whether the students were guilty. The essense of your argument condenses to
"Yes but unlike in America, in Germany this is legal!"
And I fail to see how it makes it any better that Germany is deporting people demonstrating against genocide, simply because you believe it is legal (which it probably is not according to international human rights laws, which Germany is supposed to follow).
I have inserted the sentence again because you apparently only read the last part and had overlooked the part about the building occupation and damage to property.
Okay clearly you are not even interested whether the students were guilty.
You may be surprised, but** I** don't make the laws.
And I fail to see how it makes it any better that Germany is deporting people demonstrating against genocide
Then you should read the article again. Because almost 50% of the article consists of explaining what these 4 people are accused of and are - apparently - NOT simply protesting.
None of the protesters are accused of any particular acts of vandalism or the de-arrest at the university
load more comments
(11 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
They should take this to ECJ. If I understand what I read correctly, this is clear treaty violation by Germany. Freedom of movement isn't some "oh we observe it, when we like it" thing. It is treaty bound obligation by member states who have ratified treaties. Take this all the way to ECJ and have it bonk bundestag and chancellery over the head with clown hammer of "it is pretty stupid you think treaty obligations arent legally binding mwmber state".
IIRC with EU citizens they have to argue threat to public safety. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this thing stops at some district-level Berlin court, Berlin's courts are way saner than its administration. "Threat to public safety" can be incredibly low-bar or quite high bar, this would be a high bar case. Low bar would be stuff like "you're unemployed and homeless, go back to your home country and file for welfare there".
Can't really bonk the federation for this it plainly doesn't have the authority to give orders to Berlin's immigration authorities, this is the state of Berlin doing shit, not the federal government.
Well to EU, the federal government is responsible. If they don't have authority to intervene on behalf of EU-citizens rights being violated, it in itself would be treaty violation. Member states have duty to police and administer the rights. EU doesn't care is state federal or not, the singular member state entity is responsible to EU and it is up to member state to domestically organize so that treaties are followed.
load more comments
(1 replies)
If they really want to deport foreigners they should start with the old-fashioned antisemites that mingle in those protests.
that is part of their supposed reasoning. the four are accused of chanting antisemitic things, but they dont tell u what has allegedly been chanted.
either way, deporting EU citizens who havent been committed of any crimes is very legally dubious.
deportations in general if u ask me, are morally dubious.
who havent been committed of any crimes is very legally dubious.
TBF: as the article states, under German law it is not. Whether that is a good idea can surely be debated, but it is legal.
It's not under EU law. Freedom of movement for EU citizens is a legally binding treaty obligation.
The TFEU has a provision in section 45 that allows member states to limit this freedom, e.g. for security reasons. It will be up to a court to rule whether a sufficient reason was present in these cases, but a state can legally strip you of these rights.
load more comments
(6 replies)
I seem to remember that most of the actions of the Nazis once they got into power were also legal.
Maybe, just maybe, people should have a standard of right and wrong which does not delegate that definition to "legality", especially people in Germany.
load more comments
(4 replies)
load more comments
(2 replies)
what antisemites? deporting people is a Nazi tactic so it's ironic to label this "combatting antisemitism".
I'm not supporting illegal deportation, but I'm also not supporting true "I really just hate jews because they are jews"-antisemites that unfortunately feel right at home in valid protests against Israel's actions.
protests are public, those people are gonna show up no matter how progressive the protest.
most antisemites in Germany are pro-Israel, people that go at AfD marches to support their party's line of Zionism by all means necessary in order to bring about the rapture of Jewish people from the Holy Lands.
protests are public, those people are gonna show up no matter how progressive the protest.
Not necessarily, no. Organizers can publicly distance themselves from unwanted people beforehand and during speeches, as well as check people's banners and clothing, and that will generally help quite a bit.
most antisemites in Germany are pro-Israel, people that go at AfD marches
I don't experience it like that. I think the right wing is genuinely split over whether to support a Jewish religiously-defined state or whether to support anything anti-Jewish.
which banners and clothing do you want to be censored? if you mean Free Palestine and from the river to the sea, don't even bother as you'd be outing yourself as a zionist
Primo job jumping to conclusions. I was naming examples of actions. How organizers implement them is not something I am going to have a say in anyway.
I am saying though that interactions like this are probably unnecessary: https://files.catbox.moe/ssct8w.mp4 If you don't understand German: The "reporter" is an Afd member who is asking a pro-Palestine protester about the historical Nazis and the protester responds that he likes the number "6 million" [as in 6 million Jews killed during Holocaust]. Also, ftr: I do not endorse using the Jandl quote over the video in this context.
I can't research this particular incident if all you give out is a video without sources from local media saying whether he experienced repercussions or not.
I don't get what this is supposed to prove, that anyone can put on a keffiyeh and say Nazi shit?
It's not local media, it's literally a nazi live streamer filming people for profit. Nonetheless, it's proving that it's not always hard to tease out actual antisemitism from a subset of the people attending pro-Palestine demonstrations. And I do find that a credibility issue.
I agree and also, what the fuck does this have to do with anti-genocide protesters getting deported?
That's how the thread evolved. It likely has nothing to do with the four people from the article though.
I don't understand, the rapture of the Jewish people by establishing a Zionist ethno state? I think it's much simpler: The original fascists were antisemites because Jews were the scapegoat that could mobilise the masses due to a hatred for Jews that has been cultivated for centuries in Europe, it was en vogue. The fascist(oid) populists today use Arabs/Muslims (not that the average AfD supporter knows the difference) and therefore show public support with a regime that already shows little mercy for those. And yeah, true neo nazis, islamists and whoever else hate Jews will show up for the protests, and if there really need to be deportations, they should be first.
Zionist ethno state
~~Jewish people are not an ethnicity. They are defined by religion.~~ Alright then, ethno-religious state; see below.
Jews are a classic example of an ethnoreligious group, being Jewish is not solely a question of religion. E.g. many Jews in the US identify as Jewish, but do not believe in Judaism. And religious hardliners in Israel have a very clear image of what kind of people can be real Jews.
the deportation of anyone, regardless if they're a political enemy or not, is a direct pipeline to normalizing fascism.
this is an article exemplifying how fascism always comes for trans people first and you're here talking bs about islamists. most terrorists in Germany are white Germans.
I haven't been clear. Yes, deportations are wrong (even though my heart really wants fascists out of the country), and yes, it's alarming that at least half of the victims are trans/queer.
i agree entirely with you. i think the only way for Germans to get rid of fascism is to start tackling their white supremacist culture.
That's true for all of Europe. But first, we'll need to get our shit together and fend off agitprop from Russia, China, and, in the future, the US.
I've lived all over Europe and once upon a time I naively expected that people in the country of Nazism would nowadays be the most sensitive to racist thinking and acting of all, and hence the least racist of all, but that's not at all my experience.
Germany and Germans justifying the racist practices of their own power elites and the fast slide back to authoritarian practices, with whataboutism and "legality" (as if most of the worst actions of the Nazis weren't things they first made sure to make legal) is, frankly, scary as fuck for any European who is not a far-right Muppet, not least because it shows the moral and ethical distance between mainstream German politics and the AfD is paper thin.
Most of Europe isn't supporting the mass murder of children by a nation because of the ethnicity said nation claims to represent and most of Europe hasn't made it legal to deport people who weren't tried and found guilty of something, and that Germany, of all nations, who did what they did almost a century ago and spent the time since telling us "Never again!" are back to the level of racism that knowingly sends wepons and ammo to a nation mass murdering chidren justifying that support with the ethnicity of the people of that nation, and is passing Fascist legislation to deport people without trial, is really making them stand out from the rest of Europe when it comes to Racism and Fascism.
Your peers in Europe on the Racist and Fascist scales are the likes of Hungary, not the Scandinavians or even the French.
load more comments
(9 replies)