Was the Darma Initiative socialist?
this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2025
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I think that in order to have a socialist nation you first need a nation.
And you're not going to get that without being a power hungry lunatic.
We're still a serfdom ruled by kings, and no amount of window dressing has changed that. At best we decide what colour hat the king will wear every four years.
I think we're mixing up socialism and communism here.
Ya that's what I thought too.
Socialism is an economic system in which major industries are owned by workers rather than by private businesses. It is different from capitalism, where private actors, like business owners and shareholders, can own the means of production.
ok, then what's communism?
Yeah I was under the impression that socialism was a collective redistribution of wealth, "from those that are most able to those that are most in need." While Communism is where capital is publicly owned, like a commune, "Seize the means of production".
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Communism seeks to completely abolish private property by distributing goods based on needs. Socialism is just the workers owning the means of production.
It's when you don't shave or bathe and spend all your time wearing army-surplus jackets in coffee shops trying to pick up hippy chicks.
edit: forgot how many tankies are here and SUPER sensitive about being called out.
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Come on now! China is totally communist! After all when Marx envisioned his ideal state is was an authoritarian police state with billionaires, massive wealth disparities, stock markets and an investor class, right?
Similarly:
Is every good or service-providing entity privately owned? No? Then it's not capitalism.
Is the fire department part of the government (i.e. worker-owned), or is it a private entity? Do you have pinkertons or police? Are there soldiers, or are the armed forces entirely mercenaries? Are roads privately owned? When people get old and need some kind of regular monthly payment, does that payment come exclusively from private insurance policies and/or investments, or are the payments provided by fellow workers in the form of a government benefit?
Every modern economy is a mixed system involving some capitalist elements and some socialist elements.
The meme said, "the means of production." It did not say, "every, single means of production."
The OP could have meant anything from workers electing their CEOs in 51% of the steel mills, smelteries, oil rigs, cinemas, restaurants, etc. all the way up to 100% like you decided to assume.
But honestly, it makes very little sense to read 100% into this, especially with your wording of "good or service-providing entity".
A hell of a lot of "good or service-providing entities" are sole proprietorships, which are in a blurry gray area between private ownership and cooperative ownership. On the one hand, many capitalists started out as sole proprietors. On the other hand, by owning one's own means of production, a sole proprietor is both worker and owner, fitting perfectly in the definition of socialism. In fact, I would argue that the sole proprietor doesn't really become a socialist or a capitalist until another worker joins the business and it becomes a cooperative or a private company. Until then, the distinction is meaningless.
That's ot what the word capitalism means. Like, not even close.
Socialism is generally considered to be the workers owning the means of production.
Welfare, infrastrucutre, and public services are not means of production, even if you think that the government is a workers' state (and I can think of no major current governments which are legitimately workers' states).
Socialism is not simply when the government or community does or owns things in general, but the core means of generating economic output.
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It is private in case you didnt know (police) It is just not on paper
No True Scotsman
No True Scotsman
I love how people use the term to mean "Words cannot have definitions", which isn't what the fallacy means at all.
But I bet it makes them feel real smart for a few seconds when they incorrectly use the term.
Come on, this is Lemmy where every person is a self-enlightened "intellectual" and any argument that they don't like or don't have a response for is a fallacy of one of the 2-3 that they can remember at the moment (always strawman and no true Scotsman) and of course then the opposing always completely invalid with no counter argument. (Even that this in itself is the fallacy fallacy lol)
Every metaphor, simile, or analogy is a strawman,every definition is a no true Scotsman, and every history book, report, research, or scientific studies is an appeal to authority 😉
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Lol yeah. No True Scotsman is against shifting/arbitrary definitions, but your definition of socialism here is rigid and clear.