Meta (lemm.ee)

OK that's the last straw for me. I am willing to give the benefit of a doubt to people, but this is the third strike for this person. So I've asked them to move their comm to another instance as they don't align with our instance values.

Which community is that? Did you report it so that the admins can take charge?

Is it transphobic or just woefully ignorant? (I have a point to asking that, bear with me)

I've not seen them talk about trans issues before, and haven't looked yet to see. Edit: I went to look and see. Jfc, they're an idiot. May or may not be a transphobe, but they are talking about shit that is so far off of reality in multiple places that I don't even know how to unpack it all. Don't go brigading, don't go fucking with them, but holy fuck. I can't even. It makes it impossible to tell them apart from a transphobe because damn, there is some serious lack of thinking going on.

But, believe it or not, some people are just stupid, rather than bigoted. It's impossible to tell the difference most of the time, but with user histories, you can check and see if they're consistent on lemmy.

That's the whole problem with propaganda. It works. You get enough people parroting inaccurate, or outright made up information, it spreads, and not everyone has the background to recognize how dumb it actually is.

Now, for anyone reading this that holds the opinion stated in the screen shot based on supposed facts, it is simply bullshit. Once someone begins hormone treatment, the changes begin. Those changes functionally erase the "advantages" that are claimed. It is utter tripe. The younger the person is when they begin hormonal treatment, the less time it takes for the supposed advantages to go away.

Now, here's something else interesting. If the person is an athlete before hormones, and after, the changes from that tend to stay in place. But, and this is the key part, someone born with a functionally female endocrine system and is an athlete before and during puberty has those same advantages.

That's right. The way bodies change from sustained athletic training are more significant than those from hormones alone.

Muscle attachment points, as a primary example. They form from using one's body, and that doesn't play favourites. You lift more, you get bigger attachments. You work harder, you get more.

Now, having bigger muscles does increase that. But even that changes post transition. The bones still shift and reshape. You lose that advantage over time.

So, anyone arguing that having previously been exposed to testosterone is a permanent advantage is wrong.

At most there might be a period of time where the body changes that there may be a temporary advantage. But it will go away.

You know how we know it'll go away? Records. Go look up the world records for some sports and athletic endeavors. Trans women have competed alongside cis women plenty. There's no trend of trans women dominating any sport. It isn't there. Go look at weightlifting in specific, the sport where having lifted while having high testosterone is the biggest advantage possible. Where's the trans women wrecking those records?

Yeah. Exactly. Despite there being trans lifters men and women, trans athletes simply don't perform better as a group. Trans women lifters lose muscle mass and drop their maxes. It isn't immediately, it does take time. But you'll see it start in a matter of a month or two of starting anti-androgens, much less the rest of hormonal treatment.

But, and I think it important to say, I know this because I have a background as a lifter, and low level medical training. Not everyone would know this. Someone without that advantage might not immediately see the claims of advantages and not know it's bullshit. They'd have to actually fact check the claims instead of swallowing them whole. Which is why it could be stupidity instead of bigotry.

Also, there are top level cis female athletes that have way higher testosterone naturally than other cis women, and definitely higher than trans women. So, if anything, a trans athlete up against one of them would be disadvantaged. Mind you, having higher testosterone isn't a gimme for gold medals. Those women, even with that hormonal boost lose to women without it. So, you know, an even bigger hole in the propaganda.

Since nobody that whines about trans athletes ever bothers to suggest waiting periods before competing as their confirmed gender, you can tell they're either an idiot, or a bigot. The issue is figuring out which, since they look the same.

Ugh. I've been sensing a shift in tone on this instance. And the bowing out of the head admin really didn't assuage my unease. Now this. I get the feeling I'm going to be changing instances again, which is a shame. This was a good instance for a while.

ETA: Looking into it, it appears this occurred on dbzer0. Probably worth bringing it up there, as well.

You know what? As a woman who’s had a sex change, I am so tired. I could not give a shit about this mods opinions or any of this topic from anybody.

It’s quite simply a topic that loses us support for emotional gut vibe reasons that have nothing to do with rationality. And for what?

I’ve never played women’s sports. Nobody trans I’ve ever met plays women’s sports because we’re all fucking afraid of it and always have been.

We are less than 1% of the population and of that 1% maybe 1% is anywhere near ballsy enough to even begin to try in this environment let alone having the resources to try competing on top of much more pressing matters like surgeries and hormones.

Are these people ignorant and on the wrong side of history here? Absolutely.

Have transsex people been playing sports for decades without issue and without dominating even one out of hundreds of different sports? Absolutely.

Are they just making shit up about transsex bodies based off nothing but unchecked stereotypes and ignorance because they only ever notice the most visible and non-passing ones and have no idea how many of us are stealth? 1000% you betcha.

Could whatever nuanced future issues be resolved by simply introducing additional classes according to measurable biological traits like weight or shoulder span in the few cases where perhaps one day there will be reason to? Yepppp.

Is this whole conversation actually just misogynistic control over women’s bodies that will ultimately harm quantitatively more cis women than trans women? Yep!! And they are better poised to tackle that than us when it does.

And yet? I want everybody to shut up about it because we have far more pressing issues at hand. When it comes to women’s sports the public has made up their mind and the facts don’t matter.

We’re losing access to life saving medical care, being deplatformed, and criminalized for existing in public and y’all still think this is about pointless debates over sports. The public does not have much bandwidth in their minds to spare on us & it’s imperative we get off this topic.

If someone thinks I’m a “biological male” who shouldn’t play women’s sports I don’t frankly care. As long as they don’t interfere with us building robust community organizations to ensure everybody has means to survive the Nazis in coming years, it’s fine.

Frankly they can call me a biological male all day if they want to deliver some hormones to a girl who needs them. They’d still be stupid and wrong but at least useful then.