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My dad was a prison guard, I've thought about some of these dynamics a lot over the years.

I mean free speech is a deeply contradictory concept, which i largely support, however, people having the "right" to harm others as fascists mean to do is not a human right but a right of domination, which I am actively and deeply set against. And prison justice is just a "right" to harm others, only one that we are conditioned to live with.

It does create an opportunity for a little irony, which I can't pass up.

But part of my criticism is not just "Nazis exist in prison" but "carcerial justice is just as fascistic as anything we associate with fascism" which never gets even thought about let alone discussed anywhere but the fringes of the prison abolition movement.

And things like prisons and police, the existence of many kinds of crime, particularly property crimes, need to be considered historically contingent, so that no matter how much we want to just delete all prisons they do serve as a solution to contradictions that arise within our society. So that the struggle to abolish carcerial punishment has to be simultaneously replaced with something better. Which is just and worth fighting for.

Getting rid of heil Hitler hand gestures in public might prevent the public proliferation of "signs" of fascism, the actual causes of it are institutional and function in cooperation with systems of institutional racism, Etc., and until those tendencies are abolished, and that is the worst expressions of class domination within capitalism, fascism will always be a problem to contend with.

In other words, we have fascism because we have prisons. Or rather, the underlying logic of fascism is just the underlying logic that justifies carcerial justice, taken to its natural conclusions.

So its not just irony, its like a double irony

I don't know we do it, but I think addressing the root causes as to why people are drawn to hate groups or hateful beliefs would be better. Eliminating the symptom doesn't solve the problem.

Well I say it elsewhere, but we need to really start to rethink carcerial justice as a solution to social problems. It doesn't help, it just compounds the contradictions that lead to problems like crime, fascism in the first place.

I understand we can't just snap our fingers to make it go away. But The first step is discussion.

Do you think the same about any traffic violation or all fines in general? We should throw people in the jail for a year, mnimum, because otherwise it's just a tax on not being rich enough for the crime?

Come on now. I'm all for having tougher sentences on the high end for hate related offenses, but a mandatory minimum being year in jail for any such offense, even some dipshit doing a Nazi salute and nothing is else, is just too much. It's like said, dipshit behaviour but hardly worth a year in jail. And it probably won't solve the issue anyway. Just putting people in jail seldom does imo. Yanks have already tried that.

It's nothing to do with paradox of tolerance to think a year's mandatory jail time for a year is pretty ridiculous for any "hate-related offenses".

I'm against in general of just throwing people into the slammer and hoping that fixes the issues. Punishment should fit the crime and some dipshit doing some Nazi salute isn't worth a year in goddamn prison. Give them a hefty fine for first time, sure, but a mandatory sentence of a year for any such offense, just seems too far.

Why stop at jail time? Why not execute them?

Edit: the point is to consider what level of punishment is appropriate, not to actually execute anyone.

If you consider a fine just a paywall then do you feel like there should be jail sentence for all traffic violations too, for example? A bit ridiculous, imo.