this post was submitted on 13 Jan 2025

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Immutable Distro Opinions (www.linuxfordevices.com)

submitted 3 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I recently took up Bazzite from mint and I love it! After using it for a few days I found out it was an immutable distro, after looking into what that is I thought it was a great idea. I love the idea of getting a fresh image for every update, I think for businesses/ less tech savvy people it adds another layer of protection from self harm because you can't mess with the root without extra steps.

For anyone who isn't familiar with immutable distros I attached a picture of mutable vs immutable, I don't want to describe it because I am still learning.

My question is: what does the community think of it?

Do the downsides outweigh the benefits or vice versa?

Could this help Linux reach more mainstream audiences?

Any other input would be appreciated!

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[–] [email protected] -2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

So, you're saying that immutable is terrible for system uptime.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Could you share some pics (without anything private ofc) of bazzite? I wanted to try it but I couldn't use it as live distro. My main problem is arch because I'm used to apt and I find pacman or whatever it uses difficult for me (nothing I can't learn ofc)

I love the idea of getting a fresh image for every update

What do you mean? Thanks

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (7 children)

Isn't bazzite fedora-based? Meaning you use dnf instead of apt or pacman.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Is there debian based immutable distro?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Yes, it's called VanillaOS! https://vanillaos.org/

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago

Thank you)

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

For my needs, I've build a static system with buildroot for a pi zero. No updates, no modifications on the system, no remote access. Some directories are in tempfs, and after a reboot the system is fresh again. when needed, I removed the sd card and copy a new image

I use this board for a pulseaudio/mpd player, it's not intended for a desktop usage, but I'm happy beiing able to configure a system like this one. For me, there is no maintenance, and this is exactly what I wanted

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I wonder if you can download Apparmor and Apparmor-d on mutable distros, But I faced issues of bwrap and I couldn't find a SELinux equivalent for Apparmor-d i tried allowing Bwrap but it didnt work so i uninstalled Apparmor.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago

I love building my own uBlue image. Tinkering is done in toolbox containers, definite changes are baked into the image. Completely custom (to me) and when you get it right it will just work anywhere. If I would brick my PC/storage I can just boot up another and restore my (back-upped) home dir with very little effort.

[–] [email protected] 56 points 3 months ago (5 children)

Immutable distros are great for applications where you want uniformity for users and protections against users who are a little too curious for their own good.

SteamOS is a perfect use case. You don't want users easily running scripts on their Steam Decks to install god knows what and potentially wreck their systems, then come to Valve looking for a fix.

Immutable distros solve that issue. Patches and updates for the OS roll out onto effectively identical systems, and if something does break, the update will fail instead of the system. So users will still have a fully functional Steam Deck.

If you're not very technical, or you aren't a power user and packaged apps like Flatpaks are available for all your software, then go for it. I prefer to tinker under the hood with my computers, but I also understand and except the risk that creates.

Immutable distros are a valuable part of a larger, vibrant Linux ecosystem IMO.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

So Bazzite basically is an immutable 3rd-party SteamOS. It was originally designed for handhelds (though has desktop images now) and includes the Steam Deck's gamemode package. That means it has the same interface, but working on a Legion Go or an Ally X. If anyone here has* any of those three you should seriously check it out!

The other thing as well is that more often than not, the update will succeed and you won't figure out until the next boot that something is wrong. However, Bazzite has a rollback tool so you can just change back to the previous image, reboot again and get to gaming.

That's the best reason for immutable for gaming IMO. I don't want to be fucking around with the OS when I'm in the mood to game. Being able to quickly rollback and jump into things in ~10 minutes or less is how it should be.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I personally vastly prefer mutable distros for my own system, but I understand the appeal for those who like them. As long as mutable distros remain an option I don't mind immutable distros.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

As long as mutable distros remain an option

Precisely this, linux is about choice. It's not like suddenly most distros would change init systems and make it near impossible to choose... oh, wait...
I prefer mutable and see immutable mostly as lazyness but if people wanna use'em go for it, i'm not pushing mutable down their throats.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago

I think they're great. I've got two Linux newbies running some Ublue variant with no issues

[+] [email protected] -13 points 3 months ago (16 children)

Appimages, flatpaks, snaps

Former OS security guy. Fuck no. Nope nope nope nope.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

I can see where you're coming from because of outdated libraries and flatpak sandboxing not really being a thing (it's an illusion, really) but you can't deny that this is the direction we're moving in, and we need to get flatpak sandboxing and permissions right, to ensure a proper base level of security.

For those unaware:

Many flatpaks use older, outdated, or end-of-life libraries
Flatpak permissions are messed up because most applications ask to bypass the sandbox at install-time

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

How come?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 months ago

I can see why it’s “former”.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Yes, who would want sandboxed apps which restrict the app's access to the system. /s

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Immutable ≠ atomic

Bazzite is atomic (not immutable), same with Silverblue and other Fedora variants (they're all atomic, even on their main page it says atomic). It's kinda misleading ngl

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Fedora Atomic IS immutable. Rpm-ostree just layers (or hides) stuff on top of the already existing image. If you layer something, e.g. Nvidia drivers, you still download the same image everyone else uses, but basically compile the driver from fresh and put it on top. And that takes time. This is the reason using rpm-ostree to layer stuff is not recommended.

That's why uBlue exists for example. It gives you a sane start setup, where all drivers are already built in into the image. And then you can either use the clean base and add your own stuff to create your own image, or use already great ones like Bluefin or Bazzite, where everything you want is already included.

Atomic just means that every process is either completed without errors, or not at all. This way, you don't get an half updated and broken system for example in case you loose power. Happened to me quite a few times already, but never with Fedora Atomic.

Pretty much anything outside of /var/ (even /home/ is placed inside /var/) is read-only, and if you want to modify your install, you have to build your own image. Therefore, it is both immutable AND atomic.