this post was submitted on 11 Jan 2025
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Lemmy.World Announcements

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Communities should not be overly moderated in order to enforce a specific narrative. Respectful disagreement should be allowed in a smaller proportion to the established narrative.

Humans are naturally inclined to believe a single narrative when they're only presented with a single narrative. That's the basis of how fiction works. You can't tell someone a story if they're questioning every paragraph. However, a well placed sentence questioning that narrative gives the reader the option to chose. They're no longer in a story being told by one author, and they're free to choose the narrative that makes sense to them, even if one narrative is being pushed much more heavily than the other.

Unfortunately, some malicious actors are hijacking this natural tendency to be invested in fiction, and they're using it to create absurd, cult-like trends in non-fiction. They're using this for various nefarious ends, to turn us against each other, to generate profit, and to affect politics both domestically and internationally.

In a fully anonymous social media platform, we can't counter this fully. But we can prune some of the most egregious echo chambers.

We're aware that this policy is going to be subjective. It won't be popular in all instances. We're going to allow some "flat earth" comments. We're going to force some moderators to accept some "flat earth" comments. The point of this is that you should be able to counter those comments with words, and not need moderation/admin tools to do so. One sentence that doesn't jive with the overall narrative should be easily countered or ignored.

It's harder to just dismiss that comment if it's interrupting your fictional story that's pretending to be real. "The moon is upside down in Australia" does a whole lot more damage to the flat earth argument than "Nobody has crossed the ice wall" does to the truth. The purpose of allowing both of these is to help everyone get a little closer to reality and avoid incubating extreme cult-like behavior online.

A user should be able to (respectfully, infrequently) post/comment about a study showing marijuana is a gateway drug to !marijuana without moderation tools being used to censor that content.

Of course this isn't about marijuana. There's a small handful of self-selected moderators who are very transparently looking to push their particular narrative. And they don't want to allow discussion. They want to function as propaganda and an incubator. Our goal is to allow a few pinholes of light into the Truman show they wish to create. When those users' pinholes are systematically shut down, we as admins can directly fix the issue.

We don't expect this policy to be perfect. Admins are not aware of everything that happens on our instances and don't expect to be. This is a tool that allows us to trim the most extreme of our communities and guide them to something more reasonable. This policy is the board that we point to when we see something obscene on [email protected] so that we can actually do something about it without being too authoritarian ourselves. We want to enable our users to counter the absolute BS, and be able to step in when self-selected moderators silence those reasonable people.

Some communities will receive an immediate notice with a link to this new policy. The most egregious communities will comply, or their moderators will be removed from those communities.

Moderators, if someone is responding to many root comments in every thread, that's not "in a smaller proportion" and you're free to do what you like about that. If their "counter" narrative posts are making up half of the posts to your community, you're free to address that. If they're belligerent or rude, of course you know what to do. If they're just saying something you don't like, respectfully, and they're not spamming it, use your words instead of your moderation abilities.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

This policy to me seems as an attempt to sensibly resolve the power trip problem, but it appears a bit vague and there is still room for improvement. There are some communities where this makes sense but I think there are others where it does not. Moderators are volunteers and I think they should have a degree of discretion how they run the community. You're the admin so do as you will, but may I suggest:

Where a one sided narrative is strictly being enforced that world admins don't appreciate, would it be better to just move/rename that community to better reflect it? Such as moving the example community mod to a new community called "marijuana is bad", to better reflect the variety of views the moderator is looking for? I know a pervasive issue is a single poster/moderator just posts and enforces a one-sided view, but perhaps the root of that issue is that the community's name misleadingly looks to be a neutral place when it is not being run that way.

I say this because there are places that are not intended for neutral discussion and are meant to be more supportive of one group.

LGBTQ+ safe spaces are a prime example, but a different example about more trivial matters would be, say, Premier League football clubs.

If someone makes a Chelsea fan community, someone else coming in to say why Liverpool is better can be removed, as it should be more of a Chelsea echo chamber. Whereas in a Premier League community, blocking Liverpool posts and only allow Chelsea supportive posts would make sense to get admins involved to have it be more open and neutral.

Personally I think it would be better to enforce a policy of ensuring a community's moderation matches the intent implied by the name of it. The policy as it stands feels heavy-handed on moderators.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (5 children)
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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

Good fucking luck.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

So c/world will start allowing all sources of news?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (3 children)

No? Is it necessary to go to terrible sources in order to make your point?

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I would be happy enough if its moderator stopped instigating and escalating conflict with individual community members.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

Pretty sure I agree with the gist of this, and it's welcome. My corner is small anyway, with not a lot of trolls and troublemakers, and I hope I'm already in line with this policy.

Well, unless I'm one of the mods who'll "receive an immediate notice with a link to this new policy."

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

FlyingSquid is known to violate this on /c/world

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

How? Genuinely curious. Their name is everywhere and I often see him discuss with people who disagree with him.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

hes the best dont believe the disinformation about him a reliable source tells me he is NOT a zionist

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

A zero tolerance policy against zero tolerance policies against intolerance and mis/dis/malinformation? The explanation was a bit figurative language heavy.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (6 children)

yeah I don't really follow. Would be better if they gave a direct example of it.

I assume [email protected] banning people who disagree with the mod, and that vegan one banning actual vegans for being "fake" are what's being talked about, but I'm not sure.

Some clarification would be nice.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

This is a hard one to enforce but it should result in a much more pleasant experience overall. I think we have something great on Lemmy and decisions like this set us apart from places like reddit.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (4 children)

We're going to allow some "flat earth" comments. We're going to force some moderators to accept some "flat earth" comments. The point of this is that you should be able to counter those comments with words, and not need moderation/admin tools to do so.

I get that those are examples, and I am pretty sure I understand the problem this is trying to address. Like, I get that.

But, aside from the aforementioned "many root comments in every thread", where do we draw the line with regard to misinformation and/or trolling? Are we expected to refute every crackpot claim and leave misinformation, conspiracy theories, and the like on display? I feel like that's just a recipe for gish-galloping mods to death while opening the door to mis-information.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (16 children)

A lot of attacks like that are common and worth refuting once in awhile anyway. It can be valuable to show the response on occasion. Additionally, you don't always have to have the last word. When they end with something ridiculous enough, I often just leave it. The point is to help the reader see the options, but you can't make them drink. If they look at the water fountain, then the toilet, and then they choose the toilet, well maybe they're not able to be helped.

If they keep spamming, you have a legit reason to remove them.

The communities where we take action should have a very clear pattern. I don't expect this to be perfect, but we're open to suggestions.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Fuck man, I may as well get back on reddit. If you're open to suggestions, I suggest, perhaps, meditating on where the value of lemmy actually lies.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (9 children)

You underestimate the masses’ susceptibility to be gradually grifted into believing increasingly worse falsehoods, bigotries, and self-destructive ideals.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

If they look at the water fountain, then the toilet, and then they choose the toilet, well maybe they’re not able to be helped.

But sticking with this analogy, imagine you see someone hanging a sign saying "water fountain" over a toilet, and you're told you have to leave it there because of "respectful dissent" and "if someone chooses the toilet, they're not able to be helped." Which makes more logical sense- telling every single passerby that despite the sign this toilet is in fact not a water fountain, or just taking the sign down and dealing with the few people who do question it?

Like, I get that heavy-handed opinionated overmoderation is a problem that should be addressed in some way. Forcing mods to blanket accept factual falsehoods isn't the way to go about it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

To add to this, the toilet/water fountain example is almost simplistic as to be not worth engaging with. Almost childish. \ The fact of the matter is that everyone has some kind of foolish belief that they might not have taken the time to address. Maybe we don't just toss people in the trash bin because they were duped, their education system has failed them, or they just are from a part of the world were toilets are not bowls full of water.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (8 children)

Feel free to check my comment history in this community on prior announcements; you'll see I've defended pretty much every site-wide action the LW Team has taken because I've seen the merit to it or understood where they were coming from.

I cannot defend this one, though.

If someone submits something counter to objective reality, mods should have every right to squash that as misinformation even if they're not spamming it. Sure, we can't make them drink an antidote, but we should not be stopped from preventing others from drinking the poison.

I sincerely hope your team revises this or applies it more granularly where the problem actually exists because I feel like this is just creating a whole new set of problems.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (7 children)

Yeah I agree with you.

What happens when someone respectfully dissents trans’ right to exist?

Debate like that should be shut down right quick.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)
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