this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2025
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Understandable, we should pay up (lemmy.world)
submitted 20 hours ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Then I suppose you retract the accusation that my numbers were wrong, and only maintain that my conclusion was wrong?

I updated my comment.

We aren’t using the same multiplier with 1944 rapes and 2022 rapes. The estimates of the UN and the estimates of J. Robert Lilly are not done using the same multiplier.

You're right. My source claims to have used "police recorded" incidents only. Again reporting patterns, definitions, and perceptions are extremely different now, especially post meetoo, than in 1944. I.e., you're using a multiplier on a heavily underreported number (1944) to compare to a heavily overreported number (based on change in criteria) from 2022.

The age of consent in France was 13 in 1940, and 15 in 1945, where it has been ever since.

Good on you for looking this up. Your search history must look interesting. Regardless, unless they changed the age of consent and its enforcement before May 1945, this actually supports my point.

Okay? [on population distribution]

The background on this is, the first time I realized Elon Musk is either very dumb or a nazi (or both) was when he boosted a post on interracial violence that did not adjust for population distribution. It's one of those ways to make outlandish statements that are "technically correct". It's like saying that based on their lower obesity rates, stone age people were healthier than modern humans.

As mentioned, elsewhere, the numbers of American rapes in Germany were much worse. But France? Terrible example.

That's a point I consider much more acceptable. Yet this ruined an otherwise pretty funny original post.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

I updated my comment.

So now your complaint is that I use an estimate of rapes instead of reported rapes to compare against reported rapes?

You do realize that if I used an estimate of rapes vs. an estimate of rapes, or reported rapes vs. reported rapes, in both cases the numbers would be much more favorable to the argument regarding the relatively low rate of rape committed by American soldiers in France, right?

You’re right. My source claims to have used “police recorded” incidents only. Again reporting patterns, definitions, and perceptions are extremely different now, especially post meetoo, than in 1944. I.e., you’re using a multiplier on a heavily underreported number (1944) to compare to a heavily overreported number (based on change in criteria) from 2022.

But the 1944-45 is an estimated number that presumes that only 5% of rapes were reported; ie the 3,500 number is itself using a significantly higher multiplier than the modern estimation. Unless your argument is that unlike numbers cannot be compared even with attempts at correction, in which case any comparison of rape statistics over a significant period of time is impossible, there's nothing here.

Good on you for looking this up. Your search history must look interesting. Regardless, unless they changed the age of consent and its enforcement before May 1945, this actually supports my point.

Does it? Unless your argument is that a massive proportion of the girls who were raped-but-not-recorded were between the ages of 13 and 14, it displays that there's not much of a numerical difference caused by the change in the age of consent laws.

The background on this is, the first time I realized Elon Musk is either very dumb or a nazi (or both) was when he boosted a post on interracial violence that did not adjust for population distribution. It’s one of those ways to make outlandish statements that are “technically correct”. It’s like saying that based on their lower obesity rates, stone age people were healthier than modern humans.

Because I... contested that the incidence of American wartime rape in France in WW2 was significantly higher than under normal circumstances?

That’s a point I consider much more acceptable. Yet this ruined an otherwise pretty funny original post.

Sorry for pointing out that something was a terrible example?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

if I used an estimate of apples vs. an estimate of oranges, or reported apples vs. reported oranges, in both cases the numbers would be much more favorable to the argument of apples being better than oranges

FTFY. Since the definition of rape and consent had heavily changed in that 80+ year interval, you are not comparing the same thing.

Unless your argument is that unlike numbers cannot be compared...

Yes that's exactly my argument.

...even with attempts at correction,

Not as specific absolute numbers when your correction multiplier can arbitrarily go anywhere between 2-10x (look up Radzinowicz dark figure formula that Lilly reportedly used)

...in which case any comparison of rape statistics over a significant period of time is impossible

definitely not possible without taking the differences in definition (including age of consent), reporting behavior and the distribution and behavior of population at risk (like hiding...) , etc into consideration just to make a statement like

the incidence of American wartime rape in France in WW2 was [not] significantly higher than under normal circumstances

Ironically, the BBC article you're referring to captures my objections very well even in its title: Revisionists challenge D-Day story

One woman - from the town of Colombieres - is quoted as saying that "the enthusiasm for the liberators is diminishing. They are looting... everything, and going into houses everywhere on the pretext of looking for Germans." Even more feared, of course, was the crime of rape - and here too the true picture has arguably been expunged from popular memory. According to American historian J Robert Lilly, there were around 3,500 rapes by American servicemen in France between June 1944 and the end of the war. "The evidence shows that sexual violence against women in liberated France was common," writes Mr Hitchcock. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8084210.stm

Sorry for pointing out that something was a terrible example?

You managed to outdo the example in outlandishness.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

if I used an estimate of apples vs. an estimate of oranges, or reported apples vs. reported oranges, in both cases the numbers would be much more favorable to the argument of apples being better than oranges

That's not even close. Jesus H. Christ.

FTFY. Since the definition of rape and consent had heavily changed in that 80+ year interval, you are not comparing the same thing.

Would you like to elaborate on how the definition of rape and consent changing in that 80+ year interval changes an estimation made in the early 2000s using modern definitions of rape?

Yes that’s exactly my argument.

So you couldn't say, for example, that modern rates of rape are lower than that of American soldiers during WW2? Since numbers are incomparable, of course, by your own argument.

Ironically, the BBC article you’re referring to captures my objections very well even in its title: Revisionists challenge D-Day story

... what? I haven't referred to any BBC article.

You managed to outdo the example in outlandishness.

How? By your own argument, you have nothing to contradict my point, since numbers are apparently incomparable. How can you say a point is outlandish if you can't even dispute the basis of the assertion?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Would you like to elaborate on how the definition of rape and consent changing in that 80+ year interval changes an estimation made in the early 2000s using modern definitions of rape?

I've specified differences between 2022 and 1944 few times above how they may apply differently to the two eras and situation, particularly the marital part, I don't think I need to repeat myself about it. Now, have you read the book?

So you couldn’t say, for example, that modern rates of rape are lower than that of American soldiers during WW2?

Correct and I'm not the one comparing apples to oranges here.

… what? I haven’t referred to any BBC article.

Mea culpa, you've just responded to it and seem to be quoting the numbers from it: Reference [10] is the BBC article.

How can you say a point is outlandish if you can’t even dispute the basis of the assertion?

Let me recite it:

By those numbers, it would be safer to be a French woman with an American soldier in WW2, than to be a woman with an English man today."

Those numbers say nothing about the actual safety of a French woman now vs. WW2.

But this is getting a little boring at this point. Just use a contemporary comparison next time and then you won't give off the impression of someone trivializing war associated sexual violence.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I’ve specified differences between 2022 and 1944 few times above how they may apply differently to the two eras and situation, particularly the marital part, I don’t think I need to repeat myself about it.

Unless you think marital rape was a major problem amongst American GIs in France from 1944-1945, it's not really a salient point.

Now, have you read the book?

Yes, actually. It has its problems, but the estimation of the number of rapes performed by GIs in France is not in dispute here; we are accepting it for the sake of the argument and as the citation given, the implication thereof which is being disputed.

Correct and I’m not the one comparing apples to oranges here.

How can you say a point is outlandish if you can’t even dispute the basis of the assertion?

Mea culpa, you’ve just responded to it and seem to be quoting the numbers from it:

I quoted the wiki article because the wiki article was what was offered by the original commenter, and was the implication that I was refuting. Jesus H. Christ.

Those numbers say nothing about the actual safety of a French woman now vs. WW2.

Which means your point is "We don't know and we can't know because evidence doesn't exist", which is utterly worthless as a contribution to the discussion.

So, uh, thanks, I guess.

But this is getting a little boring at this point. Just use a contemporary comparison next time and then you won’t give off the impression of someone trivializing war associated sexual violence.

I love that you offer both "Numbers are meaningless" and "You should've used contemporary numbers instead!"

Of course, if I did, then your argument would doubtlessly be "But contemporary definitions of rape don't include acts we include in modern definitions of rape, therefore, it's incomparable and my preconception remains untarnished by evidence."

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Unless you think marital rape was a major problem amongst American GIs in France from 1944-1945, it’s not really a salient point.

Bravo, you've found the difference!

Yes, actually. It has its problems, but the estimation of the number of rapes performed by GIs in France is not in dispute here;

The comparability of arbitrarily picked numbers is in dispute which depends on the methodology.

“We don’t know and we can’t know because evidence doesn’t exist” / "Numbers are meaningless” and “You should’ve used contemporary numbers instead!” / your argument would doubtlessly be “But contemporary definitions of rape don’t include acts we include in modern definitions of rape, therefore, it’s incomparable and my preconception remains untarnished by evidence.”

Fair, my time is better spent on people understanding the difference between "use comparable metrics FFS" and "numbers are useless".

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Bravo, you’ve found the difference!

If marital rape was not an issue amongst GIs, it would not have driven their rate of rapes up. As we are concerned with actual rapes committed, and not arbitrarily excluding rapes because of legal definitions, it makes no sense to try to claim the lack of marital rape recognized by contemporary law to be at all relevant.

The comparability of arbitrarily picked numbers is in dispute which depends on the methodology.

Yet you aren't disputing the methodology, but the definitions of rape. Yet in your dispute of the definitions, you manage to define literally nothing that would create substantial discontinuity between the statistics being compared.

Fair, my time is better spent on people understanding the difference between “use comparable metrics FFS” and “numbers are useless”.

Comparable metrics like "Rape per capita" and "rape per capita".

But sure, go back to claiming that the numbers are wrong, and that I've inflated them fivefold, and then backtrack and completely reverse your argument into a dismissal of the applicability of those numbers once it turns out that the numbers are valid and are against your argument, not in support of it.

Pathetic.