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Fetterman can't go Joe Manchin even if he wanted to. His party affiliation wouldn't single-handedly swing contol of the Senate like Manchin. He's not in a position where he can all but single-handedly decide if Democrat bills survive or fail. He has no political leverage. The Democrats aren't going to throw money to save him because doing so would not impact their ability to control the Senate or conduct business.
If Fetterman tries to go full Manchin, he had better hope the GOP are willing to prop him up, because Dems are just going to cut their losses and focus their money on more winnable races.
Fettermans got AIPAC backing. He's in a heavily jewish district, which is why he talks so much about Israel. Dems wouldnt DARE to cut their losses with Fetterman, he's a made man.
Please don’t equate Judaism with support for Israel. Some of the most anti Israel people are Jews. Fuck the zionists.
edit: I stand by the below text only if the user hadn’t gone on to spout blatant dogwhistles and misinformation. The above comment is fine, but all the conversation below is demonstrably false and if the mod team of this community had any integrity this would receive a penalty.
~~I don’t think kreskin was equating the two. At worst, that comment expresses the political force that Fetterman is leveraging by messaging toward a group that is primed to be (unfortunately) significantly Zionist due to Israeli/Zionist propaganda.~~
~~In other words, Israel is the primary actor conflating Judaism and Zionism (as I’m sure we both know). kreskin is saying that Fetterman is aware of the prevalence of that lie (whether he thinks it to be a lie or not) in the Jewish American population of his district, and is exploiting it for political footing. That doesn’t mean that kraeskin thinks that lie is true, only that they are aware that it is prevalent.~~
~~I skimmed your argument below and I don’t see much of anything that contradicts my more charitable reading of the above, though I am welcome to examples.~~
The dudes comments are all Nazi dog whistles. Saying Zionism started with the Romans and that the Jews “genocided” them (lolololol Romans were colonizers) is quite the elders of Zion kind of bullshit that’s fascist pretending to be “just asking questions” and “history nerd”. Then he acts like it’s a gotcha that my dates off the top of my head are 10 years off as opposed to a fucking millennium or more.
Israel is the primary actor trying to conflate being Zionist with being Jewish. As a result we have anti semitic assholes like the dude I was responding to pretending that their anti semitism is actually anti Zionism. Israel’s actions make the world more dangerous for Jews worldwide intentionally to get the diaspora to make Aaliyah and join the IDF and make Jewish babies for the IDF and the settler movement. Despite a solid third of us being strongly anti Zionist and pro Palestinian according to this waste of oxygen it’s safe to assume all Jews support Israel’s bullshit.
And then typical .world mod bullshit. Leave the Nazi comments up, moderate mine into silence. Typical liberals. Oh no I used bad bad words!
this is sadly one of the jordanlund communities. this isn’t a politics community so much as a place for that mod team to screw around—there isn’t even a full “misinformation” rule, it’s all lumped under “no memes trolling or low effort.”
this is a massive community that is understaffed—id guess mods look at each report for all of 3 seconds and only act on the obvious violations. it shouldn’t be this way, but you kind of have to operate within the rules if you want to have any positive effect. that user who is doing dogwhistles knows this, and took advantage of your low hanging fruit of uncivil language to get a free pass to stay under the radar.
It’s the same as Reddit, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. Nazi comments stay up, comments countering them with bad no no words get deleted. I’m not censoring myself when it’s clear who liberals side with - fascists. Always has been.
thats your prerogative i guess. kind of lame to see people saying the truth getting whacked for easily avoided reasons, but do you.
We're talking the reality of statistics here, even if they tread on taboos. Across jewish american respondents theres high support for both the state of israel generally, and israels actions in palestine. Isnt there.
So we end up with hard truths. Stats are stats, and for the Fettermans of the world-- money is money, when used as bribes to purchase political outcomes like brutally silencing students and professors, and news commentators expressing their right of political free speech. I worry about the very real bad outcomes for them more than the possible hurt feeling of a minority portion of religious group. You want to be mad at someone, be mad at the far right of that group for their self-abasing terrorism.
And where is the sympathy for muslims in general and muslim americans specifically? I havent seen anything but bashing of them in a long time, from both parties. Thats unamerican. Are you worried at all for them?
I hear very little sympathy for the crushing of our constitutionally guaranteed right of free speech, and thats unamercian. I'm tired of it. So feel free to wring your hands on your cause, and I'll wring my hands on mine, That IS American.
Or its supposed to be anyway.
There’s a large contingent of anti Zionist Jews in America. Stop conflating Judaism with Zionism.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/how-us-jews-are-experiencing-the-israel-hamas-war/
62% of American jews say the way Israel is carrying out its revenge on all Palestnians for Hamas's actions in October is "acceptable". 33% say its "unacceptable." 5% unsure.
Draw your own conclusions from those statistical facts, but dont tell me how I'm allowed or disallowed to view that data, and wrap insinuations and accusations in that suit your narrative. Thats not your business and I have politcal free speech. Facts are facts.
What I dont hear from the broader jewish community is sympathy or support for Muslims, I'll tell you that straight up. Are Palestinians coequal human beings worthy of rights the same as every other human, goy or not? I'd like to hear you explicitely say it before I take you at all seriously. I've been asked for a year if I condemn Hamas oct 7 attacks, so I'd say my question of you is more than fair.
Well then our opinions overlap. If you check my comments you will find that I am a student of history. I dont know how many comments I have made about the Jewish roman wars, the state of judaism in the middle east during the ottoman era, and comparing the zealots to the zionists but its been quite a few. You wont see me citing that zionists collaborated with nazis like you just did, but I have read that somewhere before as well. I was just never sure I could trust the sources as its so inflamatory. I dont know that we'll ever truly know the whole story of why Hitler did what he did.
I disagree that the zionists came about 150 years ago. I'd argue that the zionists are the same group as the second temple era zealots, with a rebranded name. If you see any difefrences between the groups, lets see em. Zealots wanted to eject the romans and establish a judean state, which is what they did, using genocide. That state lasted 3 years until the legions marched back and counter genocided. I point this out because Nothing has changed. We're fighting the same wars for the same reasons. Same genocide, different year.
And I stand my ground on the idea that I have heard very little in the way of support for muslim people in the US media. Anti muslim sentiment is out of control, and anything that even lightly offends judaism is rapidly being criminalized, which is a violation of all of our rights, a bad precendent, and something I find odorous.
You say you're of the jewish faith, and I tell you I dont care. I'm an atheist. Your cursing and anger doesnt move me much. And if I want to draw conclusions from polls I will. I dont need to wait for a poll that shows me something like "every single person of jewish faith support zionism" before I am allowed by you to say that its logical for fetterman to support zionism in a heavily jewish district, because 2/3 of jews support the war crimes that've gone on.
Its simply math, whether you like it or not. I do think your yelling at me about what I can say and what I cant is unamerican and I flatly reject it. Your feefees dont trump my right of free speech, or my right to draw obvious and mathematically sound conclusions from polls. So wrap up all your curse words and shove them right back up your rear.
You’re oversimplifying history by equating Second Temple-era zealots with modern Zionists. The contexts, motivations, and methods are completely different, and ignoring that weakens your argument.
Saying “nothing has changed” since the Jewish-Roman wars ignores how much societies, politics, and conflicts evolve over time. History doesn’t work in simple repeats.
Oh really. Like what, be specific.
Hurray! I get to be specific.
Context
Zealots fought against occupation by Rome, while Zionists emerged in response to antisemitism and the rise of nationalist movements across Europe.
Motivations
Zealots were religiously driven, while Zionism is largely a secular nationalist movement.
Methods
Zealots relied on insurgency and rebellion against an occupying empire. Zionists have used political lobbying, immigration, colonialism, and apartheid rule to ethnically displace Palestinians.
The goal of Zionism is to establish and maintain a Jewish state in the land of Israel. Employed terrorism, murder, political maneuverings, and genocide.
The goal of the Zealots was to establish and maintain a Jewish state in the land of Israel. Employed terrorism, murder, political maneuverings, and genocide.
Are you saying they have the same goals but the "motivations" are different? That doesnt make sense to me. Nor do I agree that one is secular and one religious. The basic law in Israel was modified by the zionists to say specifically, "National rights in Israel belong only to the Jewish people." Explicitely excluding Muslims. A "nationalist movement" would include non jews. Therefore Zionism is not a secular movement.
Not continuing this nonsense conversation, but let me add some context to your dogwhistles and outright bullshit for the mods and anyone else watching. Also, it’s hilarious how you can’t cite a single thing to back up your claims 😭🤣.
Zealots didn’t commit genocide, and no credible scholar says they did. You’re just making things up. The Zealots used violence and rebellion, but nothing they did comes remotely close to the ethnic violence carried out under Zionism. If you have a credible source (you don’t lol) go ahead and share it. (For the record, they did use terrorism, but that’s not genocide. Learn the difference.)
Zionism was secular from the start. Here’s a direct quote to shut this down:
If you want to argue that Israel isn’t a secular state, fine. But that’s not the point you asked about. You wanted the difference between Zionism and the Zealots, and I delivered.
Zionism, at its core, was a secular nationalist movement aiming to establish a Jewish state in the 19th century, while the Zealots were driven by religious motives in their fight against Roman rule. The fact that Israel’s modern laws don’t reflect that original secular vision doesn’t change the historical distinctions between the two movements.
You asked for specific differences, and I gave them to you on a platter. If you want to keep spouting revisionist nonsense without sources, keep it up—it just makes it clearer to the mods that you’re here for bad-faith arguments, not facts. 🥰
Let me google that for you: According to historical records, during the Jewish-Roman wars, particularly the "Kitos War" (115-117 AD), a significant number of Greeks and Cypriots were killed by Jewish rebels, with Roman historian Cassius Dio claiming that around 240,000 Greek-Cypriots were massacred by the Jewish insurgents in Cyprus alone; this revolt saw widespread violence against Roman citizens and other non-Jewish populations across the Roman Empire, including in Cyrene and Alexandria
google aggregated results from: https://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=resources&s=war-dir&f=wars_romanjewish#%3A%7E%3Atext=Second+Jewish-Roman+War+%28a.k.a.%2CWar%29+%3A+115-117+A.D.&text=It+started+in+a+Jewish%2Ckilled%2C+both+Jew+and+Gentile.
"The Jewish Encyclopedia describes the Cyrene massacres:
By this outbreak, Libya was depopulated to such an extent that a few years later new colonies had to be established there. Under the leadership of one Artemion, the Cypriot Jews participated in the great uprising against the Romans under Trajan, and they are reported to have massacred 240,000 Greeks (From Dio Cassius, lxviii. 32" https://countercurrents.org/2024/03/the-new-sicarii-the-jews-face-a-hostile-world/
"The Zealots took a leading role in the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), as they objected to Roman rule and violently sought to eradicate it by indiscriminately attacking Romans and Greeks. Another group, likely related, were the Sicarii, who raided Jewish settlements and killed Jews they considered apostates and collaborators, while also urging Jews to fight the Romans and other Jews for the cause. Josephus paints a very bleak picture of their activities as they instituted what he characterized as a murderous "reign of terror" prior to the Jewish Temple's destruction. "
"The Sicarii were a splinter group of the Jewish Zealots who, in the decades preceding Jerusalem's destruction in 70 CE, strongly opposed the Roman occupation of Judea and attempted to expel them and their sympathizers from the area.[12] The Sicarii carried sicae, or small daggers, concealed in their cloaks.[13] At public gatherings, they pulled out these daggers to attack Romans and alleged Roman sympathizers alike, blending into the crowd after the deed to escape detection."
both from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealots
You see those citations [12] and [13], feel free to trace those back in the wikipedia bibliography notes if you need to.
so killing hundreds of thousands, and indiscriminately killing all romans and roman sympathizers --men, women and children, just for the crime of being Romans is definitely a genocide. The areas were emptied of people entirely and had to be recolonized by Rome. Its pretty darn close to exactly the same as zionists killing people just for being palestinian isnt it. Do you understand now why they are the same philosophy and history is simply repeating itself?
Heres a direct quote for you:
"The Zionists are heirs of the original Sicarii" https://countercurrents.org/2024/03/the-new-sicarii-the-jews-face-a-hostile-world/
So theres the quotes you demanded-- you're welcome!
And did you just cite David frickin Novak as your source, the guy who argues that zionism is only a coherent stance when done by Jews (he flatly rejects secular zionism) and calls for Israel to be a theocracy. Thats your "historian" "source" huh. You realize that your source vehemently disagrees with your assertion that zionism is secular, right? So your own source contradicts you. Thats pretty inconvenient for you, my condolences. If you need a source for Novak disagreeing with you, Here you go, from : https://www.amazon.com/Zionism-Judaism-Theory-David-Novak/dp/1107099951 "the main task of religious Zionism to be the establishment of an Israeli theocracy."
"Book Description This book argues that Zionism is only a coherent political stance when it is intelligently rooted in Judaism."
And you claim the mods might want to take a look at my comments huh, Thats hilarious. Tell me what TOS I have violated.
awesome sources! looks to me like exactly what you wrote: a massacre, huge but not labeled a genocide by any reputable source, and a zionist who wishes modern zionism was a theocracy but has written, admitting in print, that it wasn’t.
nah i don’t care go read them yourself
thanks for the opportunity to let me clarify. a few tips for an up and coming history scholar as yourself: it helps if you read the things you cite, and you might want to brush up on the accepted definition of genocide. 😊
At least my sources dont undercut my entire point like yours did.
240,000 civilians killed simply for their ethnicity by terrorist means is genocide whether you like it or not. I dont need an author to call it out for it to be true. Thats not how the world works, friend.
Its clearly not that you dont care, because you are the one who brought up the mods and how they should come and look at my comments. Its that you utterly failed and lack the common sense and basic dignity to take the loss, thank me for the sharing of data, and walk away like a well-raised human being.
Zionists are zealots and they are religious fundamentalists terrorists. It has been proven. You have yourself a nice day now. I'll be blocking you now so we dont have to have a repeat of this behavior on your part.
Haha. Liar. Name even one scholar of repute who believes this. Your credentials as “student of history” are severely maligned by this and it might be time for you to hit the books.
I would love to continue a conversation with you but this single malignant statement from yourself has poisoned the well. Ending the discussion here. 🙃
smart.
thats a quote from your comment.
so when I literally read back your own comment material to you, you say I got my facts wrong??
They are not at all dangerous. They never were. You just dont like them and are crybullying. You opened this yelling and cursing at me in a because I pointed out a statistical fact. And now you are in some sort of imagined existential danger. Time to report your comments. You have stepped over the line and violated the TOS multiple times.
You’re saying that “Zionism” has been around since the Romans. I’m off by 10 years because I’m not a fucking nerd fact checking every exact thing I write, I’m so sorry, but you’re such a fucking moron you can’t tell the difference between 10 years and a fucking MILLENNIUM.
You’re spewing flat out anti semitic lies that once again have nothing to do with Palestine and everything to do with falsehoods about the Jews. You’re falling into a fascist rabbit hole via support for the Palestinians. You’re being fash pilled.
I don’t give a fuck about TOS, keep spewing your anti semitic bullshit somewhere else. BLOCKED.
Read a fucking history book instead of embarrassing yourself you dumb teenager who gets all your facts from fucking tik tok.
Typical .world bullshit. Liberals supporting fascists name a more iconic fucking duo. Fuck you mods. You’re allowing this assholes antisemitic comments to stand and deleting my counter comments.