Who even needs investigative journalists with hidden cameras when there's Israeli state television
this post was submitted on 20 Feb 2024
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It is pretty much something the nazis would do though
What, not give people a mattress?
Imagine yourself in the place of one of these men. How would you feel? Would that be acceptable to you? Would that be acceptable to your parents? Would it be acceptable to your spouse to not know where you are being held or why? Would it be acceptable for you as a lawyer to get no legal representation because a colonizer decided you are going to be tortured and humiliated for being X ethnicity?
Yellow cheese and bread would be fine with me if I was in prison as an enemy combatant and suspected terrorist.
Such detention is usually indefinite, or at least usually lasts until whatever conflict ends, and POWs usually do not have a right to counsel.
Stress positions are torture and that's not a subject I know much about from an international law standpoint. If it's not illegal it should be.
But here you are once again without enough information to form a strong opinion, getting emotional, and reacting as if you have a real good idea of what's happening in this video, which you do not. Are they stress positions that the inmates are forced to maintain for hours at a time, or were they told to get on the ground with their heads down and legs crossed so the cell could be opened safely for whoever that is touring the facility?
The video and audio are cut up and spliced. You have no idea what the speaker is talking about when he says "this is how it should be after October 7." Does he mean they should be in prison? Does he mean they should not be moving or talking? Does he mean they should be eating only white bread and yellow cheese? Does he mean they should be in stress positions being tortured? Who knows? Not me, not you. And this is how we got here: people reacting to the worst half of a story and automatically assuming the worst possible explanation. That's just not how I operate; I can see that I do not have enough information to have a strong opinion about this video or photos, so I don't have one.
Jesus. Even the US gives "enemy combatants" MREs. They are done and out of the fight. There's no reason to mistreat them at that point. It's just cruelty for the sake of it and no it's not legal.
I had to guard detainees before they were taken to the rear, and after searching them they keep their clothes and get an MRE and a bottle of water. You just sit there in silence then. Nothing else is required. The fact that they're in an armed camp handcuffed and hooded is enough to keep them quiescent. And once they're in a prison there's certainly no reason to treat them worse than we did in the field.
If you've got them to spare, sure. I suppose you are right. Bread and cheese alone is no way to feed someone and has plenty of negative health consequence. I still don't know enough about what the photo shows. How long does this diet persist for, is this a factor of intentional choice or is what they have extra in a warzone!
And to your second point, how about if the muckity mucks come for a tour and inspection, which is what this video seems to me to show, or if this is the intake holding or transport procedure?
I appreciate your perspective on this.
Do you even know for sure these men are Hamss? Or do you just believe any "report"?
Asking since you seem to think criminals deserve no human rights. As a lawyer I'm sure this isn't your professional opinion but somehow it's good enough for Palestinians 🙂
And btw was America a democracy when women and black people couldn't vote? This was a question on another thread about a similar topic
No I have no idea if they are Hamas. I hope they aren't doing this to people who just want to live their lives and I don't think they are.
As to your other question if you're going to make me respond I think it's a revealing question for you to ask. It obviously was then and still is, without serious debate by political scientists of that day and this day. You sound as if you're asking me if the world was flat some arbitrary amount of time ago, it wasn't then and it still isn't. And don't get emotional with me, I didn't make up all of political science.
Wherever people are practicing democracy, no matter how dim the flame may look to you, it is much brighter than the total darkness of mysticism and fear that governed all societies for most of world history.
As I've said I appreciate you and your entire perspective on this and mine is obviously different. I'm about people, and if you must know I represent people exclusively and for me, lasting civil rights, enshrined in primary law and custom, with the consent of the people and checks and balances. It's incompatible with religious extremists out there chanting death to American and death to Israel. And that's fine until they start crossing borders to kill civilians and talking about having their own country.
It's not going to happen.
Why don't you think they are? What makes you dismiss everything a Palestinian doctor or ambulance staff would say as "mere reports", but when it's the IDF or Israel you say shit like "and I don’t think they are."
Why? What's the difference? What makes you think they aren't doing this, when everything else in the news we have been seeing points to the opposite: that torture in Israeli prisons is alive and well and some have even been killed in custody.
So just to get this right:
YOU BELIEVE THAT AMERICA WAS A DEMOCRACY EVEN WHEN WOMEN WERE SEEN AS SUBHUMAN AND NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE AND WHEN BLACK PEOPLE WERE SEEN AS SLAVES AND COULDN'T VOTE?
Well, buddy, then I understand you fully. You're actually just someone totally okay with fascism as long as its dressed in sheep's clothing pretending to be a democracy. Regardless or your treatment of women and black people in daily life, what you said is quite racist and sexist given the context. I guess after this I don't really see why I should keep barking up your tree to see if you consider Palestinians like me to be human beings... you clearly say you will but you never walk the walk just like with women and black people. 🙂
EDIT: even the women sufrage movement agrees with me, and without this argument wonen would not vote today in America:
And you dare gaslight me! Wow!
Democracy is when PEOPLE have the POWER via voting... not *WHITE PEOPLE AND MEN.
What the fuck would that mean to me as a women if I wasn't allowed to vote in this system!??!?!?
I don't appreciate you anymore after this...
YOU MEAN LIKE ISRAEL IS DOING NOW TO GAZA? LOL*
It's people like you who guard the faulty system as it is with this bullshit, @[email protected]. Oh it's much brigther than the darkness, you see!! that's why it was still a democracy even if half the population was not considered WORTHY enough to vote, and a large chunk were just slaves okay? But the flame don't die, okay??.
Lol, lose me with this BS would you?
Wow. Obviously I'm not going to respond substantively to this rambling wall of emotional nonsense.
Right, you can say whatever you want, we will let the readers judge whether this is emotional nonsense or weather you are just biased and don't realize how much you dehumanize Palestinians.
If Israel doesn't have food to spare then there are far larger problems not being discussed. Also, if this is what their leadership expects then that's a big problem.
Good points. I hope if the leadership was touring around and saw this position that it was indeed only for very temporary purposes, such as a bang-up or transport.
"Only for a temporary purpose," says the person ignoring Palestinian suffering in Israeli prisons.
Here enlighten yourself by the words of Israeli Jews because the words of Palestinians like me isn't good enough for you:
The IDF keeps a Palestinian tied to a tree until 5AM: https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/27690
Children younger than 10-12 handcuffed by the IDF for no good reason: https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/48694
The IDF using Palestinian homes as a military point just to humiliate them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3DOZXEj0fA
The IDF torturing handcuffed and blindfolded Palestinians and posting it on TikTok: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugjKevmlsY4
The IDF waiting to ambush a TWELFE-YEAR-OLD child and then kill him: https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/84876 (How brave!!!)
Children as small as 12 are in Israeli prisons for no crimes and with no legal representation. I thought that should horrify you as a lawyer. I really thought you would care about that 🙂 but I have lost all faith in you considering me or people who look like me to be human beings.
Have you ever heard of act propensity evidence? You're again allowing your emotional thinking to make wild leaps in logic.
Wild leaps of logic? That Israel is committing genocide and torturing Palestinians in a prison iin their apartheid ethnostate?
I often wonder how you take yourself seriously. These are examples of torture and humiliation performed by the IDF, the dossier is bigger than you can imagine, but you will conveniently wave that "act propensity evidence" card or that other "but these are just reports" card so you can protect yourself from the emotional impact of admitting that a genocide is underway.
If you can't even see what leap of logic you are making with blatant act propensity evidence, it's because you are not good at evaluating information, and I think it's because you have no ability to think rationally when you're uncomfortable with the subject matter. Why not leave yet thinking to people who know how to do it?
I think this is where you and I part ways. Your rambling about Israel and America not being democracies is a bridge too far for me. It's like you're a flat earther.
🤣
Bud, are you fucking kidding me? How irrational is it to erect your own bias wall? "Democracy" is not above criticism, and "Democracy" without Palestinians is a racist farce. I never said current America is not a democracy, since everyone CAN vote. I said America when African Americans and women couldn't vote was not a democracy... And I'm saying that Israel, a racist apartheid state that jails and kills and tortures Palestinians because of their ethnicity and doesn't allow them to vote is not a fucking democracy. You can't do apartheid and democracy at the same time. That's fucking insane!
That would be insane. Which one of those two things are you wrong about then?
Neither.
Yes, it's all of political science who is wrong! /s
Political scientists say an apartheid state is a democracy? I don't think so.
Or, political scientists say......what's the other option?
You've almost got it.
You think all political scientists say that Israel isn't an apartheid state? Sounds like BS to me.
All of them? No. The overwhelming majority of credible, professional political scientists, though.
Are you sure? Can you list some of these?
Ample examples of the contrary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
@[email protected] Oops should I just assume you were overwhelmed by the fact that political scientists, diplomats, and human rights organizations CALL THIS AN APARTHEID STATE?
Here is the link again if you missed it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
It's just Wikipedia.... surely you will now admit you are wrong? Or will this all just be another "collection of reports" that you don't like?
Of course I'm expecting a long block of text where you dodge each point and beat around the bush and fail to admit the crimes of Israel.
this is the daily reality of Palestinians in prison.... you are just too in love with Israel to admit they do evil and for the life of me I wish I knew why.... why are Palestinians not worth a nickle in your eyes?
I think you shut off your humanity and regard for others in that sentence.
It's amazing the denial mode you enter when it's about Israel's crystal clear genocide. Suddenly you can't see amymore.
No-one is debating that the IDF are way over the line, but the comment made was comparing a picture of a masked dude saying the prisoners should be made to sleep without a mattress to the industrialised murder of an entire ethnic group over the majority of a continent with the sole purpose of eradicating them.
It's one symptom we see in systems like Nazi Germany, and apartheid Israel. Hope that helps you understand what people are complaining about.
lol people are debating that and this is an ethic cleansing of a region. they'd do the whole continent if they could they've literally said this
I mean, I think people go to the Nazi well a little too frequently. It’s almost like, “you’re on my side, or you’re a Nazi.”
Now, this has made it very confusing in recent years when we had real-ass nazis trying to claim power. But pointing that out became muddied when held up to the years and years of “Nazi” labels being thrown around.
However, it’s not completely out of line to be making genocide claims. Because…I mean…what’s happening in Gaza is pretty standard genocidal behavior. But with the nazis being the standard bearer of what people see as genocide, people usually only express it as “this is the holocaust.”
And if you think it’s okay to do this to prisoners—I mean, you’re belittling abuse by making some flippant remark about keeping six people tied on their hands and knees in a four foot room while keeping them malnourished—then you’re only missing one aspect of why people are calling what’s happening a genocide. The other aspect of that is all of the rhetoric coming from Israel that shows the sort of “sub-human” othering of the Palestinian people along with the seemingly complete annihilation of this culture and people.
The “no mattresses” thing isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s happening within the context of prisoner abuse. Which is happening within the context of and overwhelming force keeping a specific group penned into a smaller and smaller area, while they seemingly indiscriminately bomb a cultural group nearly out of existence, while there is system-wide othering of this group of people, and they’re spoken of as if they’re sub-human. And treated that way.
Keep them in shackles in very small cells with nothing, not even mattresses or food that is more than bread. This is subhuman treatment. A lot of prisons in other countries which is equally fucked up but that is not relevant for this conversation