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Spain’s Socialists to ban trans women from female sports (www.telegraph.co.uk)

submitted 4 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

49 comments fedilink hide all child comments

The Socialists, led by Pedro Sánchez, the prime minister, included plans to limit participation in female sports to “people with a female biological sex” in a policy document decided on at the party’s congress over the weekend.

The decision to also remove Q+ from a plan to protect sexual and gender minorities from the impact of social inequality sparked fury from LGBTQ+ activists and politicians from Left-wing partners of Mr Sánchez’s minority government.

The passing of a transgender rights reform in 2023, allowing anyone to change their official sex simply by stating their wish to switch, caused a bitter rift within Spain’s ruling Left-wing forces.

Carmen Calvo, the former Socialist deputy prime minister, said at the time the reform would “destroy the powerful battery of equality legislation in our country”.

Pathetic display from so-called socialists

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I can, I just did, bone density, body build and muscle strength cannot be fully reversed. I’m not saying every trans athlete will better or ‘unbeatable’ as you put it. I’m saying they’ll have an unfair advantage.

Bone density is actually one of the things that absolutely goes down with HRT, they even mention that in the study you cited.

Studies in nonathletic trans women after GAHT demonstrates no change in height, but have shown decreases in hemoglobin, bone density compromise, and decrease in muscle mass and strength, which continue to decline beyond 2 years.

While absolute muscle mass is higher, their relative muscle and fat mass percentages and muscle strength corrected for lean mass are no different to cisgender women.

no significant difference with cisgender women for running times by 2 years and sit-ups by 4 years after GAHT. An advantage in push-ups or upper body strength over cisgender women may remain at 4 years

This is all from the study you just linked, if you really are interested in learning maybe you could try reading the sources you're bringing to the table.

Just to close out, again citing the study you provided:

with so few trans athletes and extremely low participation of trans people in sport, recruitment into such research will be challenging.

It's almost like this is a non-issue that is being brought up by assholes to discriminate against an out-group.

A reminder that this comm is not for debating trans rights, (rule 4) I've let it slide thus far, but I'm really starting to question my judgement.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Bone density is actually one of the things that absolutely goes down with HRT, they even mention that in the study you cited.

Note I said not fully reversed.

This is all from the study you just linked, if you really are interested in learning maybe you could try reading the sources you're bringing to the table.

I did, it's clear that there could an adventage, not that there definitely will be.

It's almost like this is a non-issue that is being brought up by assholes to discriminate against an out-group.

A reminder that this comm is not for debating trans rights, (rule 4) I've let it slide thus far, but I'm really starting to question my judgement

Don't put me in the opposition just because I'm trying to understand and educate myself, I'm tired of people on both sides of this argument making clearly blanket statements, one side says "there is no physiological difference" and the other goes "hey it's completely unfair". Reality lies somewhere in the middle, but seems like you're not willing to talk about the gray zone.

For the record, I support trans rights, and not taking away any power from you to educate me.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Note I said not fully reversed.

Are you interested in defending your statements or learning?

Bone density in trans women actually can end up being lower than in cis women, citation

I did, it’s clear that there could an adventage, not that there definitely will be.

It's a tiny fraction of the population, even less of whom are going to be athletes. Cis women are perfectly capable of having higher testosterone levels and muscle mass than trans women.

Frankly a far bigger advantage when it comes to competing in sports is being wealthy enough to even have time/money to train for and attend these types of events on a regular basis rather than working to survive.

Don’t put me in the opposition just because I’m trying to understand and educate myself

Don't get defensive then.

Reality lies somewhere in the middle, but seems like you’re not willing to talk about the gray zone.

The reality is that the 'sanctity' of sports competition is and has been a farce, excluding trans people entirely is a shit way to address whatever supposed problem there is, and the people who are interested in excluding trans people don't give a shit about evidence anyways.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Are you interested in defending your statements or learning?

No need to be condescending, and my words have no need to be misread.

I have never claimed otherwise to anything you just said, I'm pointing out that there are blurry lines, grey areas where it is unclear how much bone density or muscle mass loss is considered as fair. We have very little ways of verifying what dosage of hormones people recieve, and people have no right to demand that information, making this whole thing into a mess. And the last thing we want is excluding people for 'not being trans enough'.

I hate how discrimination is even a factor, it shouldn't be, and I am aware this is fighting a greater issue, maybe its better to be defacto all inclusive until proven to be a problem.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Not sure any cis or trans person can match your density