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How can I vote for Kamala Harris if she supports Israel’s war? Here is my answer | Bernie Sanders
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024
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Cool, just have a couple quick questions you can maybe help me out with:
How exactly does a Harris loss benefit Palestine? Serious question. If she loses, Trump wins, and he is very vocally supportive of Israel. I get how this helps bolster a narrative, but how does this help Palestinians?
How is what you're doing any different from using sympathy towards people suffering genocide to try to influence voters? Serious question. If leveraging the tragedy in Palestine to corral people to vote a certain way is bad, why are you doing it right now?
The Palestinians are fucked either way. Either the party that enabled the genocide will stay in power, or a party will take over that everyone agrees will be worse.
My stance on genocide will not change. There's a good chance that the dems will use the genocide as a carrot to get voters to the polls, and then move the goalposts later. They're leveraging genocide for political gain, I'm just against genocide.
Then you should be trying to prevent the guy who wants all the genocides from getting elected. But you're not. Which is why no one believes you're here in good faith.
I don't care what others believe, they're voting to support genocide. The only control I have in this situation is to not actively support those commiting genocide. Everything else is out of my control.
Your options are "Genocide, but might be talked into dialing it back if politically viable" vs "More genocide, for genocide's sake"
All you achieve by not supporting the first is making the second more likely. If you think Bibi's dictator-loving buddy is better for Gaza than the career politician doing career politician things during a close election, you are an enemy of Palestine.
After the election when AIPAC loses their leverage, Harris could come around. Trump will double down. I'm voting against doubling down, are you?
Genocide is going to happen regardless, the only option I see as viable is to not throw my support behind the parties pushing for it. Harris could come around, sure, but I'm not going to bet on it and I refuse to support it.
You do realize that "Palestine's fucked anyway, it's more important to impotently virtue signal that I'm upset about it than to do something which might actually help them in any way" is absolutely sociopathic take that cements you as an enemy of Palestine, right?
This is about voting for genocidal candidates, and has nothing to do with private donations or contributions to the Palestinians. I can donate to the cause to help them with food, water, and medical supplies and not vote for genocide.
Uh huh, which won't matter much if Harris loses and Trump gives Bibi the all clear to nuke Gaza. If you actually cared, you'd consider the material conditions of others and the actual consequences of your vote. But the rational and compassionate choice feels icky, so you'd rather polish your halo while Bibi finishes the job.
He's finishing the job anyway, both Harris and Trump will continue support to Israel.
Have you tried actually asking Palestinians what they want you to do to help them? Because it seems like you fell for pro-Trump astroturfing and have confused obstinance for morality.
So read that letter and take the action they're asking you to take to help them, or admit that you care more about flouting the misguided illusion of morality than you care about Palestinian lives.
So is donating money so they can get food, water, and medical supplies not helping them now? I don't understand. Morality is definitely the issue here. It begins and ends on the very personal decision of not wanting to vote for genocide. Any relation to what the Trump campaign is doing is coincidental. The only thing I'm obstinate about is not throwing my support behind genocidists.
And Palestinians are telling you that "not wanting to vote for genocide" will make their situation worse.
So, again, take the action they're asking you to take to help them, or admit that you care more about flouting the misguided illusion of morality than you care about Palestinian lives. Because it sounds to me like you care more about flouting the misguided illusion of morality than you care about Palestinian lives.
Options are Genocide Lite with a chance of less genocide, and Genocide Xtra Strength with the certainly of additional genocide. Your refusal to vote Genocide Lite is tacit support for Genocide Xtra Strength. Which is the greater moral good, obstructing Genocide Xtra Strength, or helping Genocide Xtra Strength? Because no matter how loud you whistle while you polish that halo, your actions are helping Genocide Xtra Strength and you'll have to carry that disgrace to the grave.
This discussion keeps going in circles. I'm not voting for a politician that is pro genocide, lite or otherwise.
Actual Palestinians: Please, we're begging you, we know the Biden response since Oct 7 has been disappointing, but things will be much worse under Trump. Please, please, keep Trump out of the White House, if he wins we're doomed.
Some smug moralizing bastard on the Internet: lol both sides
Call me a bastard if you want, at least I'm not using strawmen and ad hominem to defend supporting a genocide.
It's not ad hominem to call you a bastard for being a bastard, it would be an ad hominem to say your argument is wrong because you're a bastard. You're a bastard because your argument is so wrong, not vice versa.
And what strawman? I literally linked you an actual letter by actual Palestinians actually imploring you to vote Harris if you care about them at all, and your response was literally "both sides".
Unless you'd like to enlighten the rest of us why your opinion on the matter is more valid than that of a coalition of Palestinians and Muslim Americans?
If both sides are dedicated to genocide, is it really both sides? Or is it really one side playing as two? You've allowed a political party to convince you that genocide is not only acceptable and supportable, but defendable as well. Where does that end, I wonder? What can't they convince you to be in support of, mein kumpel?
I don't need a coalition of anybody to tell me that even genocide lite is wrong, and should not be supported in any way.
I have only my opinion, and I'm not going to change yours any readily than you are to change mine, as we are opposed to this on a fundamental level. I do believe an impasse had been reached, as further discussion on this topic seems pointless.
Although I disagree with you, I respect your dedication, as misguided as it may seem to me.
I will take that as your admission that you care more about flouting the misguided illusion of morality than you care about Palestinian lives. Thank you for confirming.
Like I said, impasse. I can't keep you from drawing conclusions anymore than you can keep me from drawing conclusions about you and your support of genocide.
Whatever you say. I'm over here doing what the Palestinians asked me to, you're over there doing exactly what Netanyahu wants you to do. Maybe you need to start drawing different conclusions about which one of us is supporting this genocide.
Sure thing, bud. Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify voting for genocidal candidates. You'll always have directly thrown your support to a genocide, and you'll never be clean again.