this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2024
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This is really the crux of every one of these arguments about Gaza-related voting decisions though.
The people saying vote Harris please because (see OP) are saying that because they consider the trolley as an unstoppable force. There is no spectrum of feasible action that involves stopping the trolley before it takes one of those two paths. There may be feasible action that involves getting rid of the trolley later, but not now.
The people saying ZOMG you are voting for genocide if you vote for Harris seem to be focused on the trolley and can't believe we're all worrying about lesser evils when the orphan crushing trolley is right fucking there.
I am not a member of this second group, but it seems to me that they think getting rid of the trolley before it takes one of those paths is possible. Or, they think destroying the trolley later necessarily involves sacrificing ALL those groups (on both tracks above) now.
Your framework believes all non-Palestinian-genocide issues would be fixed by pulling a lever.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
Does it? Is "fixed" the only bar that matters, or is "better" not still valuable? What about simply "not actively getting worse"? Is there no value in taking the smallest of steps to keep things from getting actively worse, or even attempting to stop them from getting worse? Does that prevent you from taking bigger steps to work for a better world? Do you think unions, mass protests, and other means of systemic change will magically be easier under Hitler 2.0 than a Dem?
You've asked this other question like 4 times in this thread so far, you must really think it's a gotcha.
Let's imagine for a second that Harris and Trump are indistinguishable on the question of Gaza (they aren't, but let's pretend your fantasy reality exists for a moment). That would mean that any choice results in the same outcome. That makes that question a wash. Choosing to vote for Harris, Trump, or not vote all have the same outcome on that front. But what about the other issues that matter to people? Should we let abortion access get more difficult in the meantime? Should we let the party that doesn't believe there are any issues with policing into power over the one that admits there's an issue but hasn't fixed it yet?
Your question is incredibly dumb, not only because you seem to think that something happening while X party is in power means that X party is responsible (someone never took a civics class and learned about SC appointments or the filibuster) but because it's entirely possible for a party to be good on one issue and bad on another. The Dem establishment is wrong about Gaza, what the hell does that have to do with abortion? Why would they be bad on abortion and BLM just because they are bad on this issue?
I don't want to blame you for a difference in physical abilities that may exist, but are you looking at the same meme as me?
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
Who says it's not getting worse? A fellow Harris supporter celebrating "history" in Kalamazoo, where the gap between black and white homeownership is at its worst level in 50 years?:
https://lemmy.world/post/21294216
I should explain why Democrats who endorse a genocide of brown people might be bad on BLM??
It's not a false equivalence, there is no equivalence argued for in the meme. It points out that genocide in Gaza will happen on either track, but only one of them will actively make things worse for other groups I care about also. It's not calling them equivalent, in fact it's arguing they are not equivalent which is why we have a moral obligation to keep It off the track with more people on it. At best, the outcome for Gaza is equivalent, but the outcome for others is not.
Are you delusional enough to think that Trump and Harris will have identical outcomes for the other groups listed? Even if Harris doesn't "fix" those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better than a national abortion ban or anything else Trump (or really, the Heritage Foundation) wants.
Ah yes, because Harris isn't as anti genocide as we want, it's totally logical to assume she would be in favor of black people dying more at the hands of police. Yes, that totally follows. And definitely the best option to improve policing is to let Trump be in charge. He will totally not work to make things worse.
You believe Harris has somehow preserved abortion rights and that others are delusional?
A person who made their career out of imprisoning mostly black and brown men should be somehow seen as strongly against "black people dying more at the hands of police"?
I love that you cut off the quote mid sentence, conveniently leaving out the part that would have answered your dumbass question. No improvement to abortion access is objectively better than working to make things worse. If those are the only two options, we all have a moral obligation to keep things from getting worse.
You're the one who implied it was the Dems fault because it happened while they were in power. Harris isn't president and so couldn't have done anything either way for abortion. But she certainly hasn't made them worse and is not in favor of making abortion access more difficult. Trump, on the other hand, will actively work to make them worse.
I'm sorry, what is Harris' stated position in BLM vs Trump's? Which one of them said "please don't be too nice" to them while talking to cops about suspects? Which one of them sent DHS to black-bag protestors during BLM again?
Your claim implying "issues only exist or worsen under Trump" is as bizarre as it is unsubstantiated.
Thanks to Harris, abortion rights have been preserved in America? There was no meaningful* change under her administration?
Why are you desperate to make this personal and attack me rather than stay on topic?
Why are you desperate to discuss Trump instead of Harris?
I don't imply they only exist under Trump, I specifically said that even if they stayed the same under Harris that would be better than allowing Trump to make them worse. If you don't see that Trump has been saying he will make the lives of immigrants and trans people worse if he had the power I can't help you. Maybe open your fucking eyes. At least Harris isn't advocating for banning medical care for trans folks or using the military to round up immigrants and hold them in military camps.
Jesus Christ dude, learn how to read. We already covered this. Harris doesn't have an administration, she is part of Biden's. Things got worse because of actions Trump took while he was in office. Remember the part about taking a civics class to leave about SC appointments and the filibuster? Again, even if she doesn't make abortion access better, that's objectively better than allowing Trump to institute a nation ban.
Porque no los dos? I'm attacking your dipshit opinions and your actions of choosing to not vote and allow trump to win and make the lives of everyone worse.
We've talking about both this whole time, you just want to pretend that allowing Trump to will is totally separate from voting for Harris. There are only two outcomes here, Trump wins and makes things worse, or Harris wins and she doesn't.
Is "dip shit" what your bullies called you as a child?
Do you think you are bullying any progressives with your long-winded hateful rants?
No, it's just fun to call people with harmfully stupid opinions words that correctly describe their mental state.
No, people like you are beyond convincing with reason, as you never reasoned your way into your position. It's cathartic. And hopefully someone less brain damaged will see how incredibly dumb and dangerous your opinions are.
Come on, I'm sure you learned something during your unloved childhood.
Your only passion in life is to now vaguely troll people who disagree with genocide?
Even if more people die on the bottom track than are shown in the drawing, it will still be true that no one dies on the bottom who isn't also dying on the top, and that more people in total die on the top. (IMO, and I think in the opinion of the first group of people I described.)
If the folks who don't want to vote Harris due to Gaza are doing so for some reason other than what I outlined above, I'd love to hear it. Because if they aren't trying to get rid of the Trolley than why the fuck would they be taking action that increases the chance of the trolley going to the top track?
Weird to repeat myself, since the original words are there. Let's see if you ignore the point again:
I skipped over it because it's practically a non-sequitur, and it's nearly the same argument as Trump vs Harris on Gaza. You've got the party that might do something good and you've got the party that definitely will do nothing good, and you have no other viable option. Not a difficult choice at that point, for me.
So the last time you pulled the lever for Harris, Democrats solved all non-Palestinian-genocide related issues?
It's dumb of me to question your lever pulling logic?
No, but it's pretty disingenuous to suggest that either all problems must have been solved or else I should make a choice that might let Trump in.
I'm not here to shame anyone for how they are voting, and don't really care what you think of my "lever puling logic" - I was trying to get at the heart of your trolley analogy.
And yes, it's exactly as stated - you are very focused on the Trolley, while I consider it an unstoppable force at this time. All the rest of our "argument" is just restating that difference more explicitly.
Are we looking at two different memes??