this post was submitted on 12 Jun 2023
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But the terminology 'authoritarian and oppressive' doesn't really make sense in leftist circles where all states are understood to be just that by definition. I mean, that's why people are socialists. Tankie is lib terminology referencing anything that undermines liberal democracy. It only makes sense when coming from anarchists.
You've never had the pleasure of interacting with someone that can produce endless excuses for the USSR or PRC?
Found the lib
Sure 🙄
Yes, but that doesn't make them more authoritarian or oppressive because no matter what every state is using what it deems the most effective path to enforcing its will and if that means violence it will always resort to violence. It makes them bad communists.
It's not a matter of oppression or no oppression but a matter of oppressing the right people. If the USSR and PRC were perfect they would be a contradiction to their own purpose, no?
Look amigo, I get there is a lot of depth to be had in a discussion like this, but I'm just explaining what people generally mean when they say tankie.
I would agree they are bad Communists, but unfortunately they are extremely visible and influence how non-Leftists see Communists, which is why many Leftists are quick and eager to disavow any connection with them.
They are bad because they oppress the privileged, I assume. The privileged do not need communism. Leave communism to the unprivileged people.
No I mean like how homosexuals were persecuted
It took West Germany 2 decades to catch up with East Germany re: LGBTQ rights. Tge USSR was the primary opponent of the Nazis, do you know what they did to anyone falling outside of the sexual or gender norms? Germany was a bastion for queer people before the Nazis took over - Nazis quietly supported by Western powers under the hope that they would kill the Soviets (spoiler alert: they tried to kill every Slav). During the cold war in capitalist countries, homosexuality was generally illegal, often criminal, and was used to blackmail people, and notably used against high profile civil rights activists.
Does that make the oppression that did exist in some socialist countries okay? Of course not. But they did much better than the capitalists, so it's ridiculous to choose that as your primary criticism. Socialism isn't a utopia and no socialists ever claim it is. It is a struggle, and the earlier it starts the better we can progress.
Cubs is currently running circles sround capitalist countries with its new family code. Were you aware of this?
and im a trans communist, and so are many people on this site. you think we dont know our own history?
Are you are defending, excusing, or justifying the persecution of LGBT people?
what?
If you aren't defending, excusing, or justifying the oppression of people by the USSR or PRC, then I'm not talking about you; you were not the type of person which "tankie" is typically used to describe
youre pretty fucking weird. being trans sucks everywhere right now, almost equally except for in certain areas like florida where theyre doing genocide. at least in china they dont have a media circus shitting on us 24/7, and theyre not doing genocide like florida, so its quite a bit better than the USA. the USSR pioneered many trans surgeries for trans men in, iirc, Latvia, actually.
cuba is probably the best place for trans people in the world right now though, which again isnt saying much. the issue with cuba is they dont have enough docs for trans affirming care, though based on the cuban trans people ive talked to that is being resolved. trans healthcare is free there and with the new constitution, by law cuba has the best protections for LGBT people in the world.
youre just misinformed about, well, everything, really, and never talked with LGBT people in other countries.
two things can do bad, you don't need to defend China or the Soviet Union when they do oppression
thats the thing though, is it oppression if they have no clue about you or what being trans even is? is it oppression by that country if other countries, which have expertise, arent providing aid and training for doctors on handling trans patients? i could see it as being a different aspect of life but i wouldnt feel comfortable comparing it to life in america, which is like living in hell because we are the preeminent culture war issue
and for the record, china does have trans healthcare in larger cities like shanghai and beijing, but there is a staffing issue, not enough docs with trans training which is again an issue of lack of awareness
homosexuals were persecuted, yes that's oppression
If you are a Communist, you don't need to defend every aspect of every Communist state (yeah oxymoron, w/e), it's okay to say "they did some things wrong"
im talking about trans issues right now because ive personally talked to other trans people there. from what i understand in asia generally trans people have it slightly better socially than gay people for a variety of reasons
They were persecuted, sadly. Communist countries stopped doing that shit earlier than capitalist ones.
Yes, but I'm referring to people defending that persecution instead of just accepting that Communist countries can also be criticized
Do you have an example of this? Because I've literally never once seen this here.
I don't keep examples of internet extremists, and I wasn't speaking within the context of this community
I wasnt concerned about “tankies” until I discovered they doubt chinese concentration camps for Uighur people
Saying China has "concentration camps" does a disservice to the real concentration camps of Nazi Germany. You're diluting the definition until it no longer means anything. Same thing is happening with the word genocide now.
Concentrations camps were not invented by the nazis.
I’ll leave this footage here.
Ah you're right. They go back to the Boer and Philippine wars and were operated by the British and Americans, respectively. Anyway, this video just looks to be a prison transport? I think we should get rid of prisons BTW, but prisons aren't concentration camps.
Prisons aren’t camps. Agreed.