this post was submitted on 20 Sep 2024
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MeanwhileOnGrad
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I agree; swing states seem to be the only ones that matter when you vote duopoly and all you care about is "winning."
I, on the other hand, prefer to have standards, so stop wasting your vote on the status quo, be it Harris or Trump, you will be rewarding genocide.
I hope your sense of moral superiority is worth more to you than the lives and livelihood of some of the US and all of Palestine.
Edit: words, sentence structure
So you want us to reward genocide by voting for Trump or Harris...
Logic.
It's not about "rewarding" the politicians. They exist to implement policies. It's about choosing the policies that materially benefit the causes you care about the most. "Logic". Jfc.
It doesn't matter to you at all that they're double standards, does it?
How?
Voting for Harris or Trump, you will be rewarding another genocide and more forever wars.
The duopoly only helps the owner-class, while it continues to pander to the working class with crumbs.
And not voting will fix this how?
Trump hardly represents the status quo.
He represents 50% of the population. And unlike the democrats who are busy squabbling and falling to extremism the Republicans are focused and ready to take back Washington
I disagree.
Policy wise, more for the owner-class and less for the working class.
Crumbs here and there by both, but ultimately the status quo will continue.
LGBT lives and women's rights are crumbs to you.
These are culture war and identity politics, used to divide the working class again and again.
The duopoly and the owner-class will always have minorities to use as scapegoats.
So let's just ignore the people who would suffer in the immediate future to instead "focus" on the indeterminate #revolution that will totally then deal with it. In the meantime I shouldn't be bothered about the suffering of really any oppressed group and their actual lives. I see, I see. But what if I'd like for my queer folks to not be criminalized back into the closet? Not in the future after the #revolution but instead the immediate future?
If your so willing to sacrifice folks current ability to live their lives for the perceived high ground of not engaging with electoral politics then just go ahead and sacrifice yourself. Or is your immediate suffering too much of a concern?
Didya know you can both vote for Dems knowing the whole duopoly and electoral bullshit and still be a radical leftist? Crazy concept, I know. But let's not forget that while economically and foreign policy wise the Dems and Republicans are the same, they are not the same in all regards. And unless you plan on dismantling the US government in the next few months, I'd like people I care about to be a liiiiiiiittle safer than the alternative.
But hey, the current lives of oppressed groups is just crumbs to you so, empathy is probably not the best way to convey this so let's talk in terms you understand.
Queer folk are overwhelmingly leftist. Maybe you'd like to keep that potentially radicalizeable pop alive and put rather than dead or in the closet.
Or would you rather accelerate their oppression and hope the loss of rights causes a radicalization swing?
Or do you not give a shit either way cause once again, they are just crumbs to you.
I disagree with your framing.
You are bringing in talking points from the duopoly, which I am against and do not support.
Fighting for minorities has always been the role of grass-roots movements and third parties.
Bringing the working class and local communities together to push past the status quo is the long-term goal, instead of being stuck on duopoly talking points that continue to be problems decades later.
Imma double up my post and give you a lil bit of theory since you seem like the kinda person who enjoys that jazz. Intersectionality. Slap that into Google and start doing some reading.
I am for the working class, not the owner-class and their lackeys that help divide us with culture wars and identity politics.
It is interesting, but I still see it as jargon and a distraction for the issues that will unite the working class.
If you can't get how that multitudes of oppression also intersects with capitalism then there is no saving you. You are willing to sacrifice crumbs/queer folk in the immediate term for literally no reason and no justification. You just personally don't give enough of a shit about those issues to consider them to be something in the moment worth caring about. Who cares about queer rights in the now when we should be caring about working class! You say as of queer folk and their oppression isn't homousian with the plight of the working class.
You just don't care. It's that simple and you've made that clear. You actively give 0 shits. Just crumbs to you.
I disagree with your framing and talking points.
You seem to be going back to the circle jerk of the duopoly, smearing and lying to push your moral high horse and victimhood.
I am not for sacrificing scapegoats and the like; I am for the struggles of the working class; we do that by building up grass roots movements and uniting, not by diving ourselves.
"I disagree with the framing" is a fun cop out for ignoring the consequences of your inaction. Just pretend it's the frame that you don't like. Dance around your crumb comment and stand on nothing.
You are for sacrificing scapegoats. You called them crumbs my comrade. You made it very very clear you do not care about the immediate social consequences of folks targeted by fascists. That's your "framing" and I'm telling you that it lacks empathy and completely betrays the ideals you think you are advocating for.
You are effectively telling targeted minorities to suck it up and suffer the next 4 years hoping that they are still alive to do it again the next 4. That's your frame. Your frame sucks. Fuck your frame.
I disagree again with your framing and smearing.
I don't think we will agree on this; our experiences and world views differ when it comes to culture wars and identity politics.
I say to continue building the working class grass roots movement so as to destroy the status quo and push for a better society for Americans and the working class of the world.
Thanks for the chat, and I hope we may unite on other topics!
"fighting for minorities" ahem. The word you used earlier was crumbs. Don't forget that. Your trying to appear pro minority whatever but when faced with the immediate future of those folks you summed their existence and problems up with the word "crumbs". I do not believe you give a shred of a shit outside economic considerations. You got so econ brained that you lost your empathy.
Crumbs are crumbs for the working class.
That is why I have this as my banner:
Fighting for minorities is not a monopoly that the Democrats hold; similar to their support for the working class, it is all an act so as to fearmonger and fundraise.
Some learned this from the Obama failures, others from the Bernie Sanders Era failures, and some learned before and others will learn after another status quo president is elected.
Raise your standards and check out third parties so we may continue to fight against the status quo.
"crumbs", such as reproductive rights?
I suggest checking out how many times Roe v. Wade could have been codified by the Democrats over the past couple of decades.
Caution: you may not like what you learn in that rabbit hole as well, though.
Which would have done fuck all as soon as a cycle came around where Republicans had control of Congress and the White House. Reversing a Supreme Court decision, OTOH, took decades of planning to line up just the right justices at just the right time.
I don't think it's relevant to compare abortion pre 2000 to post.
So with that caveat, when was there congressional support? Enough votes in both the house and Senate? With president ready to sign?
Ooh, I remember this one when some other snot tried claiming the could have so many times, the answer is 1 (one) time between 77 & 79 when Carter was president just 4 years after the original scouts ruling.
Other than that, there hasn't been a 60 vote Democrat super majority in the Senate since.
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/jun/25/control-house-and-senate-1900/
hahaha, wow.
Anyway, here ya go:
@russelldobular
[Image, image to text below]
Screenshot:
Source: https://lemmy.world/post/18990596
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/debunking-the-myth-obamas_b_1929869
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster
Read and digest both, then explain how your list stacks up to 'multiple opportunities'.
edit suggesting the edit Carter or Clinton era is appropriate comparison to the appetite for, or viability of abortion legislation today, as relates to the supreme court ruling and what should be done now is silly.
So did they have the votes or not? Looks like not.
Edit edit just having dems in seats is not a vote, automatically. To be clear, I acknowledge your points about supermajority, and move no goalposts as my original reply said "support".
Last edit: I edited several times to clarify. I understand if you are already replying and don't see em.
You can continue helping the duopoly fundraise with these culture war and identity politics talking points, but I don't like to keep my head in the sand when I already when down the rabbit holes.
Tell me precisely - and realistically - how you propose to deal with the fact that FPTP, gerrymandering, and the electoral and sociological-geographic distribution of the American populace literally makes the bar higher for Democratic presidential candidates (rural (predominantly conservative) areas have a more meaningful impact on the national result in a statistically-provable sense), and moreover that voting third party increases the total votes cast while generally sapping support for the only nationally-viable not-fascist party we have on the ballot today.
No pie-in-the-sky “the people will rise up” idiocy or what have you. Give me a real, pragmatic answer that could conceivably work in THIS election, THIS November.
Uh, alright.
I mean trying to deploy a "gotcha" on democrats as a monolith doesn't make sense when just achieving supermajority does nothing to guarantee either an appetite, or a true ability to pass a given legislation.
I agree with your message that it should be codified into law. I believe the appetite for roe law has never been higher, or more viable as legislation.
I don't know what you mean by talking points, youre the one who showed up with a poster board lol.
Further, if I'm helping the duopoly by talking about getting roe passed, then so be it. Roe isn't a "culture war" topic. It's a human dignity and bodily autonomy topic.
I see it as just another culture war and identity politics talking point so as to divide the working class.
I am more for focusing on the class war, and we start that by stopping ourselves from falling for the duopoly talking points and excuses by being their apologetics.
The working class needs bodily autonomy, or what else do they have?
I acknowledge the stain on the soul of the democratic party, but I also acknowledge that if roe becomes durable law in my lifetime, a Democrat will do it.
It raises too much money for them, so I am doutful on that part.
I have gone through many rabbit holes since the Bernie Sanders Era, lies, and failures.
I don't see how anyone else will.
Republicans aren't interested, third parties aren't viable.
Well, if you fear change from the status quo, nothing will ever be viable.
We need to be willing to fight for what we demand; that means getting over the fearmongering pushed by the duopoly.
If you choose not to take the effective paths, you will get nothing done.
I demand roe.
Democrats are the most viable way to get it.
All is well.
We all go down the rabbit holes on our own time.