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Don't tell him how Swabian Ravioli are called in the local dialect (lemmy.world)

submitted 6 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Oh, that's nothing compared to what's going on in Judaism...

[–] [email protected] 13 points 6 months ago (3 children)

My favorite is the string they put all around Manhattan, so that they can trick God into thinking that they're really at home while running errands on shabbat.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago

People are different. Some Hasidic groups (like those easy to see in Manhattan of what I've heard) do that and even more stupid things, similar to talismans and such. But Judaism frankly doesn't even have an idea of schism, so.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Eh, they don't really view it as "tricking God", because in their view you can't trick God.
It's pretty specific that you're not allowed to transfer things between "domains" in specific ways, and that a domain is a property of enclosure, not ownership.

The intent was clearly to keep people from leaving their communities on the holy day, given that the stories talk about bringing things into and out of Jerusalem being the problem, and use "home" in the context where a new Yorker would reasonably call Manhattan home.

Further, if your religion is literally the source of "the spirit versus the letter of the law" reaction of Christianity, then it follows that your religion might take a more legalistic approach to religious interpretation than the breakaway sect that's influenced much of the English speaking worlds conceptions of how people should engage with religion.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Eh, they don’t really view it as “tricking God”, because in their view you can’t trick God.

It's not so much "tricking God" as "shuddup God grown-ups are talking".

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That's awesome. "God, you specifically gave us a list of rules, one of which says we're not supposed to listen to unilateral commands from the heavens, so you coming down and giving your opinion on this is kinda out of line" and then God's just like "...You know what? Fair. Point taken, carry on."

I love that that's just a part of the religion, and it pretty clearly underlines the "you're supposed to think about and debate this stuff" part.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago

Except... that rule is actually an extremely liberal interpretation of the original scripture. "It is not in heaven" refers to Deuteronomy 30:

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.

It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'

But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Which is basically a lot of words to say "what I'm asking of you is not impossible". Rabbi Yehoshua quoted that verse as kind of a wordplay (since Rabbi Eliezer made a voice appear from heaven), and Rabbi Yirmeya twisted that to say "it no longer belongs to God, he can no longer decide".

BTW - if you read the original text in the Talmud, and ignore Rabbi Yirmeya's interpretation and Rabbi Natan's supernatural story about God proclaiming "My children have triumphed over Me" (we can determine that these two are later additions because the Talmud makes sure to give credit to the tannaim that added them - unlike the original tale which is uncredited) you get a whole different story about how Rabbi Eliezer is doing all sorts of "miracles" trying to prove his authority while the rest of the Sanhedrin standing there unimpressed because unlike the unwashed masses this kind of performance usually works on - they know how these magic tricks work, and would very like to get over that part and continue with their halachic discussion.

At any rate, the twisting of the scriptures is very very common in the halacha. The very "rule" that presumably allows them to twist the scriptures is also a twist of the scriptures. Deuteronomy 17 says:

If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.

And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.

And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.

According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.

And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die; and thou shalt exterminate the evil from Israel.

And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

Which basically says, again in so many words (I think God knew his words were going to get twisted, so he took the extra effort to be very very clear and precise. It didn't work), "if there is a dispute go to these people who have the authority to judge, and act according to what they rule". Which is pretty much how a judicial system operates. But they took this passage and said "see! it says right there - 'they shall tell thee, thou shalt do'. This means you have to do e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g we say! No questions asked!"

And to this day, Jewish people would still quote that part to prove that the Talmud's authority is legitimate while completely ignoring the context it was taken out of.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago

Michael Chabon's "The Yiddish Policeman's Union" sent me down a rabbit hole of reading up on all the loopholes, I forget what they're called now, but they're pretty fascinating.