this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2024
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(page 2) 50 comments
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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

If brute force doesn't work, you're not doing it enough

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

Violence is the question? Right?

[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 week ago

To quote the onion, violence is never the answer, if you ignore all of human history.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 1 week ago
[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I thought we were supposed to learn from history and NOT repeat it.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Learn from history and do it better this time

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago

yeah, and although sometimes violence is required sometimes, its best we avoid that.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

Violence is not the answer. It is the question, and the answer is YES

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Violence leads to counter-violence.

The only thing that will improve something is to put meaning into the world.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Your statement is too vague to convey an actionable suggestion. I'm intrigued by the thought you seem to be hinting at. Would you expand on this, include a recommended method, and reason about why it's an alternative to violence?

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The answer is violence, but to advocate for peace in principle.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago

Peace and principle... or else

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Violence is not the answer.

Violence is more of a question.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago

And the answer is YES! GET THINE AXES KITH AND KIN! WE GOT A DUMBASS TO GO FUCK UP!

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

"Do you want to be next? DO YOU?"

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago
[–] [email protected] 66 points 1 week ago (5 children)

There are PLENTY of examples where violence wasn't the answer. Those moments made gradual changes that didn't have epic struggles with heroic figureheads, so they're boring, they're not obvious, and nobody talks about them.

There are a lot more examples in history where violence was used as a tool to oppress, threaten, conquer, destroy, or completely wipe out, by great and powerful entities.

Violence is sometimes the answer, if used by cool heads on specific targets with plans on what to do afterwards.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

Non-violence is often and most effectively a direct threat of imminent violence.

Or as a promise for the cessation of ongoing violence.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago

Violence is always a valid answer. It's just not always the best answer. The problem with violence is it's been proven time and time again to be impossible to control and hold to a limited use since there are no cool heads at that point. Nor do specific targets exist-- just collateral damage.

And no successful revolutionary has ever had a sound plan for after the victory beyond "I want the power now." And they can either hold the power or not. But the idea of "for the good of the people" gets put to the side pretty quickly.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 week ago (4 children)

The problem with the fetishization of non-violence is that it ignores that most transformative non-violent social movements have occurred concurrently with violent co-movements. Ghandi preached non-violence, but at the same time, violent Hindu radicals were running around slitting the throats of every British official they could get their hands on. MLK preached non-violence, but the Black Panthers were waiting in the wings, offering a much more unpleasant option if MLK failed.

Violent social movements have very real tangible value, but their value isn't in the violence itself. We're not going to change the health insurance system through pure violence, no matter how many CEOs lay dead on the streets of Manhattan.

On the other hand, non-violent social movements rarely succeed either. Even the most modest, centrist, and conciliatory of reforms are derided as extreme or "Communist." Look at Obamacare, a reform designed from the ground up to NOT disrupt the profits of the insurance or healthcare industries. This was a modest market-based reform that was originally a Republican reform plan. The right spent a decade going nuts calling it the second coming of Mao. And they still oppose it to this day. In the end it tinkered around the edges, but it was hardly transformative change.

The real value of violence is that it makes modest peaceful reforms much more palatable. The civil rights amendments and acts passed in the 1960s and 1970s would have never passed if there were only peaceful movements behind them. They amended the damn constitution! That took people on both sides of the aisle saying, "damn, we really need to change some things. This is getting out of hand."

And that kind of broad bipartisan consensus that reform was needed was only possible because of the threat of violence. Violent radicals like the Black Panthers made MLK palatable to middle America. Without them, MLK would have just been another radical socialist to be demonized. And even then, they still killed him anyway.

The real value of violent social movements is that they make non-violent social movements possible. In fact, without violence, non-violent social movements rarely succeed. You need BOTH violence and non-violence if you want to make substantial change to the system. The violence puts the fear of God into the placid middle classes and wealthy corporate interests. This allows the non-violent reformers to show up with a solution to the problem that allows these centrist factions to feel that they're not giving in to the violent radicals. Violence and non-violence are two sides of the same coin. And they are both essential.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It seems the technique you're describing is a kind of societal "good cop, bad cop". Similar scenario to an interrogation too (trying to get information from someone who does not want to share the information) because in this case the challenge is "how to get people to share the capacity for self-determination, quality of living, and dignity when they clearly prefer to hoard it, even to the detriment of others".

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

apart of me still holds out that we don't need this type of system to push progress, taking america for example, this will not go well and many lives will be lost as there will be "both sides" and they will stay divided. The propaganda machine from Eurasia has worked. There plans are moving quite well, and i for one, will not play into that hand.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago (7 children)

Lives are already being lost. Today, approximately 186 people will be murdered by their insurance companies through the wrongful denial of life-saving, medically necessary care. By raw body count, Brian Robert Thompson killed far, far more people than Osama Bin Ladin ever did. The health insurance industry racks up a 9/11 worth of deaths every 16 days or so. That is how many people are currently being murdered by the private health insurance industry.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

Thanks, that's got me thinking

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 week ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)
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