this post was submitted on 09 Dec 2024
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General Discussion Thread - Juche 113, Week 50 - Syrian Solidarity Edition (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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Welcome again to everybody. Make yourself at home. In the time-honoured tradition of our group, here is the weekly discussion thread.

On Sunday last week, Damascus fell to Salafi terrorists and other imperialist-aligned forces. Regardless of the flaws of the ousted government, this is a horrible situation for the Syrian proletariat as well as for the people of Palestine, Lebanon and others. We can only hope for the perseverance of the Syrian workers and the remaining anti-colonial resistance.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (5 children)

Some criminals allegedly targeted a shop in the city of The Hague with explosives and they managed to explode an entire block of appartments instead. Multiple people died.

An 8 year old boy survived but lost his parents and sister in the explosion. The boy is of Chinese origin and the Dutch Chinese community stepped in to help raise money for him.

People find a way to be racist about this. Maybe some people are beyond redemption.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Omg a capybara runs this side! 🤔

capybara-theorist

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

The more I read about Soviet politics under Khrushchev and beyond, the more I see how cringeworthy and cancerous it was.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Tonight I received a fortune that says, 'YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR IS A JOY TO ALL.'

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

My fortune cookie from a week ago was "Laugh at yourself, it feels good sometimes."

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (3 children)

So there's a lot of videos on telegram of HTS executing people they don't like...

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It is horrible. Those videos are flooding plenty of Telegram channels.

From doctors, minorities to scientists being assassinated, it is as if I am seeing news of a new Pol Pot.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

And I had a person respond to me here saying they hope HTS kills all the Kurds in Syria...

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

May I see em?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

Don't do it comrade. Seeing those videos will deteriorate your mental health and may provoke you gloom. That's what is happening to me.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (2 children)

— 🇮🇷 🇮🇷 🇸🇾 Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the IRGC 'Khatam al-Anbiyaa' Headquarters: 'Bashar al-Assad did not request Iranian help – in fact he actively prevented us from coming and helping'

General Mohammad Jafar Asadi, deputy commander of Khatam al-Anbiyaa HQ:

– Bashar al-Assad said to one of our (Iranian) officials in a meeting: 'My soldiers have truly become either smugglers or thieves, they only defend those who offer them bribes and privileges. They could not defend me, and when I wanted to protect at least Damascus, I realized that they were not able to protect Damascus either.'

– Bashar al-Assad did not allow us (the IRGC) to go help the Syrian Arab Army, although he asked us for assistance in the past, but this time he not only did not ask, but he was worried about us arriving, and said that 'if you come, Israel will probably attack us'.

– Turkey is a part of NATO, and we should not see or accept the presence of this country and its influence anywhere outside of America and Europe. Turkey is a part of them, and with this attitude, it serves America. America is active behind the scenes.

– It seems that the factions present in Syria will clash with each other based on their own different interests. Maybe separating Syria is Turkey's desire, because they have been coveting a part of Syria for a long time.

@Middle_East_Spectator

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

Sad...

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

any thoughts?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

I mean it's hard to disagree. There are very few working class (read: poor) people who not only manage to have enough free time to write but to have the network to get published too.

I recently read a book on poverty written by a man who has gone through poverty himself. He only managed to get such a book published because he managed to get a university degree and a government job. He could be just a talented writer while working in a factory but he would have a much harder time getting published without the network he build over time.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Why are Russia, China, the Taliban worthy of "critical support", but Rojava isn't? US trade with China amounts to a total of some $50-60 Billion a year. Russia sells uranium to the US.

What is Rojava's sin? Surviving with the help of the US. The US gave military equipment to the Soviet Union, too, when they were fighting Nazis. They were even allies for a while.

Rojava is AES in the Middle East. They are the only socialist entity in all of Middle East.

Tin-foil hat mode: This Rojava hate is not organic. I mean you had Trotskyists joining ISIS to fight against the US, maybe this hate comes from them? I dunno. I just know the hate is unreasonable and certainly not in proportion to the "crime".

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Rojava is on the side of the US empire.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

What do you mean by that?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

in the global class war, they served the purpose of desestabilizing Syria, which like it or not was struggling against US imperialism.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

But they didn't destabilise Syria. They fought ISIS who threatened their existance. They created an autonomous region to govern themselves because there was no SAA or Syrian government presence. SAA was not able to defend people in that region from ISIS.

DAANES (they were formerly AANES) had always stated that their goal is to preserve the integrity and sovereignty of Syria. They wanted to be an autonomous region under the Syrian constitution. They didn't want to separate or declare independence.

Syrian government and SDF were in negotiations (slow and rocky) but they did have a dialogue and limited cooperation.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

As graineater said, they collaborated with the US to steal Syria's oil. This group is completely backed by the US and wouldn't exist without their support, like it can't get more blatantly obvious.

Their internal policies are irrelevant, they are US stooges and their funds come from imperialism.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (2 children)

So what should happen to Rojava and the Kurds and minorities in it? If DAANES disappears, the HTS and SNA will genocide/ethnically cleanse the Kurds.

What would be the communist and anti-imperialist thing to do in their situation?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (5 children)

What would be the communist and anti-imperialist thing to do in their situation?

Not doing the US dirty work?

Far from being based on a single ‘relation of coercion’, the world capitalist system is a tangle of multiple and contradictory ‘relations of coercion’. What determines the ultimate location of an individual (and group) in the camp of the ‘oppressor’ or of the ‘oppressed’ is the hierarchical ordering of these social relations in accordance with their political and social relevance in a determinate concrete situation, on the one hand, and the political choice of the single individual (or group), on the other. - Domenico Losurdo on Class Struggle.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Trade is not the same thing as helping the US steal oil and contributing to the internal turmoil in Syria, even if relations between them and the central government were improving. The people in Rojava were and are in an unenviable position and it may deserve critical support in the future compared to the other imperialist collaborators in the region, but it's certainly not AES.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Trade is not the same thing as helping the US steal oil

Except the US didn't "steal" any oil. The oil extracted in Rojava was sold to the Syrian government and Iraq. Look at the map of pipelines in Syria. The US didn't carry it away in a big bucket.

Why does Rojava control those oil fields? Because they took them from ISIS, they weren't under the control of the Syrian govt. at the time.

So yeah, SDF stole the oil... from ISIS. The pil profits went to Rojava, the US didn't see a dollar from it.

and destabilize the Syrian government.

How did they do that? By existing? By fighting ISIS in the northeast? By cooperating with the SAA in fighting the Turkish incursion into Syria?

It wasn't SDF that deposed Assad, it was HTS (and SNA). SDF is actually fighting the Turkey-backed SNA right now, as the SNA wants to take over Manbij.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The US absolutely did steal enormous amounts of oil, which contributed to the destabilization of the Syrian government and the suffering of the Syrian people, especially considering the crippling sanctions

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Then you should clarify they hadn't stolen it for themselves. Syrian govt. feels robbed (justifiably) but claiming the "US stole" it implies that the oil ended up in the US or was used by the US.

The reality is that the oil was "stolen" by SDF (who are supported by the US). But as I said, Syrian govt. didn't control those oil fields when SDF took them, they were controlled by ISIS.

It's like if someone steals my bike, then a third person steals the bike from them and then I accuse the third person of stealing the bike from me. Sure, it's kind of technically true, but it isn't the same as if that third person stole it directly from me.

As recent events have shown, the SAA had no hope of retaking or holding those oil fields. If SDF had disappeared, and SAA controlled the oil fields, now those oil fields would be in ISIS/HTS/SNA/Tukey's hands.

If you look at the map of Syria, you can see that Syrian govt.'s areas of control were nowhere near those oil fields.

What was "SDF giving back the oil" supposed to look like? The SDF uses resources and people to defend the oil fields, they ship the oil for free to Damascus and in return they get... nothing. If the Syrian govt. had been more willing to negotiate DAANES autonomy they would have had a better chance of "getting their oil back".

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Then you should clarify they hadn’t stolen it for themselves. Syrian govt. feels robbed (justifiably) but claiming the “US stole” it implies that the oil ended up in the US or was used by the US.

No. Many stolen items are sold rather than being used by the thief.

But as I said, Syrian govt. didn’t control those oil fields when SDF took them, they were controlled by ISIS.

ISIS was stealing oil, then the SDF took over the theft. The SDF was still stealing from Syria. It doesn't matter whether there was another thief in the middle.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (2 children)

It doesn’t matter whether there was another thief in the middle.

It kind of does, because Syria was never able to take back those oil fields. Not when ISIS had them and not in the last 10 years. One could say that Syria had lost them for good once they lost them to ISIS.

IF, on the other hand Syrian government managed to retake all of its territory and the only holdout was Rojava, I'd be more willing to agree with your viewpoint. But as it stands, Rojava wasn't even the nearest immediate threat to the Syrian govt.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but the fact that SAA and SDF cooperated against a common enemy (Turkey, FSA, SNA, ISIS) and "Damascus" and Rojava were in talks to find a way to live in the same country, Syria, together, tells me that the differences between Rojava and the Syrian govt. weren't so great as to not be overcome.

Also, if you look at the volounteers fighting for Rojava there's a lot of ML/communist parties and organisations. Meanwhile the Trotskyists supported ISIS because "ISIS fought against the imperialist puppets Rojava".

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It kind of does, because Syria was never able to take back those oil fields. Not when ISIS had them and not in the last 10 years. One could say that Syria had lost them for good once they lost them to ISIS.

By this logic, one could argue that Israel has a right to every territory they take and the resources in them so long as they're able to use the brute force to do it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It's reverse. You're saying Palestinians shouldn't be supported because they took money/aid from the US.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Is that what I'm saying or is that what you're pretending I'm saying?

At the end of the day, the only thing the YPG did was speed up the destruction of any sense of normality the people in Rojava could have experienced.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

One could say that Syria had lost them for good once they lost them to ISIS.

One could, but it would be incorrect. Most occupations are eventually defeated.

IF, on the other hand Syrian government managed to retake all of its territory and the only holdout was Rojava, I’d be more willing to agree with your viewpoint. But as it stands, Rojava wasn’t even the nearest immediate threat to the Syrian govt.

I’m gonna sound like a broken record, but the fact that SAA and SDF cooperated against a common enemy (Turkey, FSA, SNA, ISIS) and “Damascus” and Rojava were in talks to find a way to live in the same country, Syria, together, tells me that the differences between Rojava and the Syrian govt. weren’t so great as to not be overcome.

I don't think anyone here would claim that Rojava was the nearest immediate threat to the Syrian government, or that they could never reach a compromise with the Syrian government. This does not change the fact that Rojava did collaborate with US imperialism for many years, and it's by no means socialist.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

One could, but it would be incorrect. Most occupations are eventually defeated.

Rojava Kurds are native to Syria, they aren't occupiers. They are a people fighting for self-determination.

This does not change the fact that Rojava did collaborate with US imperialism for many years,

So did Russia.

and it’s by no means socialist.

What metric are you using?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Rojava Kurds are native to Syria, they aren’t occupiers

"One could say that Syria had lost them for good once they lost them to ISIS." ISIS, not Rojava.

So did Russia.

Yes, and it did not deserve critical support at that time.

What metric are you using?

It is not ruled by a communist party and its economy is capitalist. Having some workers' cooperatives does not make a country socialist.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (2 children)

“One could say that Syria had lost them for good once they lost them to ISIS.” ISIS, not Rojava.

My bad. But Rojava never meant to secede from Syria. They are still called DAANES today, administration of north-east Syria. Yes, they took the oil fields to fund themselves. But without any other source of funding (their main industry is agriculture) it was an attempt to secure a source other than US aid. We wouldn't fault a person stealing to feed themselves, in my mind it's the same thing.

As I mentioned in another comment, SDF could have done "whatever they wanted" in the areas they control, but they decided to build an egalitarian, democratic society that respected minorities and religions. What more can you ask for under the circumstances? Yet they did much more than that.

If a little "thievery" is the price for that, if I were in their shoes I would have done the same. Stalin was a bank robber, for example. I'm sure he stole from some people who were nice.

Yes, and it did not deserve critical support at that time.

Right. But we can see that conditions can change. Also, I think there are degrees of cooperation. You cannot say that Rojava is the same as Israel, for example, when it comes to cooperating with the US.

There are only about 1000 US troops left in Syria. US has no intent on fighting Turkey or their militias, they didn't help SDF hold Manbij. It's unlikely the US would help the SDF fight against HTS if they decide they want the oil fields DAANES controls.

But let me ask you this, what would have to happen or what kind of conditions would there have to be for you to think that Rojava is a socialist project worth studying? There's no Syrian government for SDF to give back the oil to.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yes, they took the oil fields to fund themselves. But without any other source of funding (their main industry is agriculture) it was an attempt to secure a source other than US aid. We wouldn’t fault a person stealing to feed themselves, in my mind it’s the same thing.

Can you connect the dots ffs.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

I'm stupid, connect them for me.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

We wouldn’t fault a person stealing to feed themselves

I would fault a person repeatedly stealing essential things required for another person to survive

egalitarian, democratic society that respected minorities and religions

In what sense are they egalitarian and democratic? A capitalist country, even if it's relatively decentralized, is neither egalitarian nor democratic in any meaningful sense

But we can see that conditions can change

Like I said, it may be worthy of critical support in the future, but certainly not now

what would have to happen or what kind of conditions would there have to be for you to think that Rojava is a socialist project worth studying

The first step would be to have a socialist, anti-imperialist government

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

The Kurds of Rojava have a fourth way: to build a “people’s economy”. The 42nd article of the Social Contract says: “The economical system in the provinces shall be directed at providing general welfare and in particular granting funding to science and technology. It shall be aimed at guaranteeing the daily needs of people and to ensure a dignified life. Monopoly is prohibited by law. Labour rights and sustainable development are guaranteed.” [37].

Dr Ahmad Yousef defines the core of the new economy with the following words: “Historical facts assure us that the economy becomes a science to meet the needs of communities, it isn’t a science to maximise wealth for specific groups. From this definition we must know that the economy would not be economical if it is not social, in other words, any economy that is not aimed at achieving the social welfare of all members of society cannot be defined as economy, but is a sophisticated mechanism for financial, intellectual and cultural looting. This definition of economics is the theoretical basis for the development of economic and social policies in Rojava.” [38].

He continues: “The market is a main part of social economy, but the use-value must be greater than the exchange-value, and there is no stock market” [39].

...

The method in Rojava is not so much against private property, but rather has the goal of putting private property in the service of all the peoples who live in Rojava, for them to use. Naturally we’re only at the beginning. But nonetheless, even if only in small ways, we’re seeing some positive developments. We must be clear that we don’t need an economic revival and development which has no clear goal for the community […] It shouldn’t be a capitalist system, one without respect for the environment; nor should it be a system which continues class contradictions and in the end only serves capital. It should be a participatory model, based on natural resources and a strong infrastructure.

...

A people’s economy should thus be based on redistribution and oriented towards needs, rather than on being oriented exclusively towards accumulation and the theft of surplus value and surplus product.

From a lengthy article (from 2016) analysing the economy of Rojava. written by a Russian Marxist (that's how he is described, don't know for certain).

Sure it's not full communism, but it's obvious they don't want to be capitalist.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Rhetoric is easy, but in practice, Rojava has no proper state, no vanguard party. Not wanting to be capitalist doesn't really matter if their economy is de facto capitalist, even if the welfare net is larger than in most capitalist countries or there's more local democratic participation.

It feels like I'm repeating myself at this point so I'm going to end it here

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

OK. I will just say that one must examine Rojava as it exists in its current conditions, and not compare it to some ideal.

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[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

So you mean to tell me that a dude that has planned a hit for days in advance managed to get caught in a McDonalds because an employee 'recognized' him while still carrying all the stuff of the murder?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 week ago

Yeah, kinda strange.

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