The allied forces planes (all made by america by the way, the lancaster is a british knock-off of the B17) were killing the members of the Axis forces, like the ukrainians and the Italians and the Germans that became nazis
this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2024
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What on earth are you on about?
The 40s ones are based because it was fascists getting bombed
Kurdish villagers... interesting choice. The people that Saddam Hussein dropped chemical weapons on. Those warplanes helped free them from Hussein's oppression. That lasted until ISIS took over. Then those waprlanes helped the Kurds in fighting off ISIS.
I think the comic is trying to make a point but completely failing at it because the writer doesn't know anything about history... even recent history.
Uh... the most recent history involves Turkey using US-sold jets to bomb Kurds in northern Syria.
Yeah Trump fucked them over, because he's a dishonourable coward. Good thing he'll never be President again, right?
Hey now.
It's just old fashioned artillery they drop on the volunteer civilian aid workers in Kurdish Syria.
Maybe I'll live to get to say Rojava one day instead.
i always find these kind of statements and comics weird, because like.
If the plane is your own, this would also signal the sound of protection and defense, which is an objectively good thing, if we're classifying dying due to a plane as a bad thing.
There are two sides to the coin and i guess this is either shitposting memes, or people never think about the fact that like, you can also just have a military.
I can't remember the exact title, but I think it's by Robert Blake. But the line is something like "a terrorist to me is a freedom fighter to you".
Definitely two sides to most things.
yeah that's pretty much the case. I guess my main point was that it will probably even out to some degree.
Agreed. Well we all can hope. Either that or.....I don't want to think too much about that.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter
I found the song. It's "Marching" by Robert Blake. But yeah. That's what he's saying in the song.
Most people don't like living near even civilian airports. Active duty flights would've usually happened nearer to the front, and modern flights often happen from aircraft carriers anyway.
Much more common for people to hear are shows of force, like the States do for holidays, airshows, and large sports games.
The comic is making fun of the fact that an airshow idolizes machines of war. Not all airshows focus on military craft, but most of them do, often being held at military airbases.
As cool as they are, it's good to remember that those machines are instruments of death, and often used against people of no immediate threat. Regardless of the necessity, I don't think that's something to cheer for.
modern flights often happen from aircraft carriers anyway
Eh, no?
Aircraft carriers are ridiculously complicated and expensive, hence even the us only having around a dozen or so? Russia famously has none. Great Brittain has like 2 or so, France like 1?
Its been a while, I don't remember the exact numbers, but the number of aircraft carriers in the world would be in the very low dozens because they're damn near unaffordably expensive.
The beyond vast majority of modern flights still happen from airports
I had meant flights of U.S. planes, but you're right, they usually use and establish local airfields, and probably only use carriers where that's too slow or impossible.
Also, none have been lost in battle since WW2.
They're basically mobile island outposts at this point.
tbf that's mostly because they're really fucking loud, all of the time. Military air fields are probably quieter for longer periods of time lol. Although still rather loud im sure.
Active duty flights would’ve usually happened nearer to the front, and modern flights often happen from aircraft carriers anyway.
to be clear, this wouldn't matter, we're talking about airshows, most people living near the front lines are going to be gone anyway. And even if we were to grant this point, it still wouldn't diminish my statement. national pride is a weird thing.
The comic is making fun of the fact that an airshow idolizes machines of war.
i mean sure, but im pretty sure humanity has always idolized the military and it's armies, as well as it's ability to project force. It's the stable of basically every great empire. Humanity seems to have an inherent connection with the ability of projecting force. It would be evolutionary advantageous, so that's probably why.
As cool as they are, it’s good to remember that those machines are instruments of death, and often used against people of no immediate threat. Regardless of the necessity, I don’t think that’s something to cheer for.
i mean sure, but morbidity is the calling card for a lot of things, the dahmer netflix series for example. Should we be treating that the same? Like to be clear, i don't disagree, but every time you pick up an angle grinder do you really need to think about how many people have been horrifically inujred by it and pray to the grinder gods for you safety? Or should you just be conscious of how you use the tool, and be careful with it.
and often used against people of no immediate threat.
also idk about this statement, maybe for the case of like the russian artillery units for example. I doubt that f-16s have been primarily used on like, someones dog. More than people of actual consequence. It's also really vaguely defined, which doesn't help.
So to be fair, I've read the original comic, and it probably was just focusing on the negative aspects of airshows.
What a lot of people get from this (including me) is the absurdity of military shows. Air shows are less ridiculous because planes are capable of some incredible things, but it's still unsettling. Like gun shows or parades of duty.
We have advanced many of our societies to such a point that we might be able to do away with weapon worship entirely, so I think it's sensible to be uncomfortable with venerating the trappings of dictators and despots.
I kind of agree that militaries are still necessary, but there's a big difference between an unfortunate but necessary thing and a celebrated thing.
The difference between an F-15 and an angle grider is that the F-15 is intended to hurt people. Pulling an angle grinder out of your coat isn't as intimidating as pulling out a knife, even if the angle grinder could do more damage. Yet both angle grinders and most knives are tools used to create. An F-15 can only destroy. It can't carry passengers, can't fight fires, can't deliver supplies, can't advance science, at best it can do acrobatics while being incredibly expensive. It's nothing more than a weapon.
To be entirely fair, even without military aircraft the U.S. would meddle in international affairs. The air force doesn't specifically enable these killings or infrastructure damage. It is however a popular and representative method of international war, and I don't think that's something to celebrate.
What a lot of people get from this (including me) is the absurdity of military shows. Air shows are less ridiculous because planes are capable of some incredible things, but it’s still unsettling. Like gun shows or parades of duty.
if we're talking about absurdity, you should really think about philosophy here, we're talking about this, over the internet, using funny keyboards. This entire fucking interaction is absurdist. The very concept of a technologically influenced military is absurdist. Literally everything is absurdist.
Would you say the same thing about the moon landing? Was that absurdist? What about the pioneer and voyager satellites? Are those absurdist?
There are so many things in day to day life, and outside of it that could be considered absurdist.
We have advanced many of our societies to such a point that we might be able to do away with weapon worship entirely, so I think it’s sensible to be uncomfortable with venerating the trappings of dictators and despots.
I fundamentally disagree with this statement. Call me when people stop randomly getting into fights with each other and maybe i'll give you that point lol.
I kind of agree that militaries are still necessary, but there’s a big difference between an unfortunate but necessary thing and a celebrated thing.
yeah but why not celebrate it? In the case of the US the military is primarily volunteer based. Drafts are extremely unpopular. Should you not respect and celebrate the people that have served in the military? Does celebrating the military not directly bolster these people as well?
In the specific case here, the US military is the reason this country even exists. It's obviously going to be a pride point of the country when it's the entire reason we exist. As evidenced in many other countries.
I would argue that a celebrated military is better than a required and mandated military (think finland)
The difference between an F-15 and an angle grider is that the F-15 is intended to hurt people.
says who? It's a plane, it's the instruments on the plane that are intended to hurt people. Should we be ok with other planes like recon and spy planes? Is the U2 a martyr of service? Is the SR-71 the pinnacle of peaceful military technology? This is on it's face a relatively silly statement.
I could very easily argue that an angle grinder was designed to injure people by proxy. It's literally designed to remove material, or to cut material, i see no mechanism in which this can't be applied directly to a human, and thus, it's designed to hurt people. And it's not just going to hurt a little bit, it's going to really fuck your shit up. you could argue that it's not an intended behavior, but i would disagree with you on principle of it being a tool designed to remove material, being successful at removing human material from human.
Pulling an angle grinder out of your coat isn’t as intimidating as pulling out a knife
is a knife designed explicitly to kill? Why do we have them in the kitchen then? Why do we use them outside of killing people, seems to me like you're implying that a primary function of a knife is to hurt people. I would argue both of these things are incredibly common, a kitchen knife even more so. If we're operating in this realm of definition. A knife would be less threatening than an angle grinder, because it's expected that someone may have a knife, but it's really unexpected for someone to have an angle grinder.
Also if we're being pedantically correct here, it's not designed to kill people, it's designed to down other planes. Not people. It'd be a little weird to launch an f16 or an f15 specifically to target one single person.
Could you argue that the military stems from the innate human need to kill other people over conflict? Sure. Could you also argue that the only reason we have this technology we have now is because of the military and this need to kill people over conflict? Also yes. There is an extremely high link between military effectiveness, and technological advantage. This can be seen throughout human history, as well as into the industrial revolution.
GPS likely wouldn't exist if it weren't for the USSR and the US during the cold war.
An F-15 can only destroy.
are you willing to argue that the f-15 streak eagle was designed with the explicit purpose of killing people? It's an f15. I would also like to point out that there are training variants of the f-15 as well. Obviously not intended for real combat. There's also really weird shit like the ASM-135 ASAT which was designed to be carried on an f-15 as an anti satellite measure. Pretty sure that's not supposed to kill people.
This is an odd philosophical question. Because at the root here is basically the question of what came first. The knife, or killing people with a knife. The gun, or killing people with the gun. Theoretically there is a world in which you could invent from scratch, a tool used to kill people. However philosophically, you're going to run into problems with related innovations and inventions. Is a sword entirely isolated from a spear? A spear is basically just a stick. At what point do we consider a weapon "intended to kill" and at what point is it just "a weapon, but with the ability to kill"
You would have a better time making the argument for something like a military service rifle, compared to like, a basketball. But i'm not sure that would make sense philosophically. Because you're basically predicating the entire human race on the ability to kill other people, and if we're doing that, then who cares.
can’t advance science, at best it can do acrobatics while being incredibly expensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15_STOL/MTD
ok.
It’s nothing more than a weapon.
no, it's a plane, the weapons go on the plane, the Japanese may have used their planes as weapons during world war 2, but that is contrary to popular belief, not the standard mechanism for operation of a fighter jet.
I live sandwiched between military bases of all branches. I've lived with the sounds of warplanes and target practice most of my entire life.
These bases cut swathes through tribal lands, leaving whole areas uninhabitable due to live ordnance.
I knew some kids from the reservations and I'll never forget how casually they'd say with every blast they're reminded that they're occupied.
I knew some kids from the reservations and I’ll never forget how casually they’d say with every blast they’re reminded that they’re occupied.
wouldnt this technically be more of a form of pseudo occupation, since they also get benefits from being a US citizen, and also protection, from these same planes as well.
When we do it, it's only a "pseudo-occupation"
When Nazi Germany occupied France, was it only a "pseudo-occupation" because the Panzers then "protected" the occupied territory from the British? What a ridiculous line of logic.
wait i'm sorry modern day native americans in the US are equivalent to french people living in france under the military control of nazi germany?
It is a negotiated treaty from the 1800s, though it took until the 1970s to get clarity on a big part of their rights. But they're still on reservations and their ancestral lands are partitioned up. They've acquired some of those lands back through various ways: legal battles and just plain buying it back.
Though mind you I'm relating something I remember as a teenager, from teenagers with politically active parents.
But more importantly my point was to highlight a lens into a different perspective. They knew they would have been just like the Kurdish villager in the comic had those planes been invented back then. I had never considered that viewpoint at the time.
yeah, which i why i consider the use of pseudo occupation, as opposed to like, settlement or something. There aspects of occupation, but up to the current modern day, there are natives in positions of power within the US government, and those with sovereign control over their own land as well.
Although to be fair, most people didn't have very many rights until the 1970s lmao.
I think those 'aspects of occupation' are quite relevant. The treaties weren't respected and Americans would just remove the people, bury tribal lands in fill material and build on top.
For example, emphasis mine: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tse-whit-zen
This village site, which includes longhouse areas, ceremonial areas, places for fish and clam drying, was** occupied by the Klallam until the 1930s.[4] During the early 20th century, businesses owned by European Americans built a number of lumber mills on top of the village site** at the waterfront during the expansion of the lumber industry. Because the ground was covered with 15 to 30 feet (4.6 to 9.1 m) of fill, the village and cemetery site was preserved through this period.[3]
Notice that timeline: 'occupied until 1930s' and 'Early 20th century.' The people were removed and they buried everything until 2004 when they started excavating skeletons. This isn't all ancient history and it hasn't really been... amicable.
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