how about we all agree that the best system is american units with metric prefixes. After all it is obvious that it takes an hours to drive 318 kilofeet
this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2023
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When my American friends insist that feet and inches is just easier for them, I just nod in agreement and give them measurements using rods, chains and furlongs as well. If you're going to go Imperial, you have to know 'em all. An acre is a chain by a furlong, totally logical as that would be 4x40 rods which is of course 43560 square feet. I guess it makes complete sense when your world is only a few furlongs across.
"Why do they use the much more complicated system?" "Nobody actually knows."
Ah nice, this should be a constructive dialogue between open minded and empathetic individuals.
grabs popcorn
In this thread: people bending over backwards to defend their insane, non-logical unit of measurement
Logical, mathematically convenient, but not practically convenient. Without a measuring tool, there's no good way to estimate anything besides a centimeter.
Every imperial unit of measure can be estimated whilst naked (but preferably clothed).
An inch is your distal thumb phalanx. A foot is your foot. A mile is, or was at one point, roughly 1,000 paces.
The weather can be estimated by going outside. Is it too hot? It's in the upper third of the 100 degree scale. Too cold? Lower third, might snow. Cool enough to fully dress, but not too cold, right in the middle.
A healthy, big person is about 200 lbs. A very small person is about 100 lbs.
Converting between these units is useful in science, which is why science uses metric. But you could live your entire life on earth and never need to know how many distal phanages are in 1,000 paces. It literally never comes up. Who cares?
It's why units are divided into fractions, rather than into a decimal system.
By the way, the only reason we use a base 10 numbering system in the first place is because we have ten fingers and it was easier for early mathematicians to count. But I digress.
If you're dividing a length of rope, and all you have is the rope, it's simple to divide it in half, and then half again, and then again in half. You could even divide into thirds, if you were feeling frisky. You just fold it over itself until the lengths are even. There are two friendly numbers that are difficult to do that with, though. Can you guess what they are? If you guessed 5 and 10, you nailed it, good job.
Same with piles of grain or hunks of beef or chunks of precious metals.
But what about units of volume, you ask? I don't have a part of my body that holds roughly 8 oz of fluid to pour out. No, for that you'll need a cup. Just a cup. Not a graduated cup with a bunch of little lines down the side. 1 cup. Or half a cup, or a third, or maybe a quarter cup. Again, easily divisible for easy measuring without any special tools.
But a gallon, you protest. A gallon is 16 cups! What the fuck is 16 cups good for? Why not 10 or 100, or create a decigallon for simple math? Because 16 can be divided in half 4 times. Measuring out portions of the whole is as simple as pouring out equal portions into similarly sized containers. Divisible numbers are easier to use without graduated equipment.
And that's why time is measured in 24 hours, each hour is 60 minutes, each minute is 60 seconds. There's a ton of history there, and we'll ignore for this discussion the inaccuracy of measuring a day or a year. If the metric system is entirely superior, why don't you demand we all switch to metric time? A year will still be roughly 365 days (again, setting aside the inaccuracy) but we could divide the day into 10 equal metric hours, or mours, and those mours into 100 metric minutes, or metrinutes, and then those metrinutes into 100 metric seconds, or meconds. 1 mecond would be 0.864 seconds, and a metrinute would be 1.44 minutes, which to most people would be an imperceptible difference in time. Hey, how many seconds is 1.44 minutes? You don't know without a calculator because we don't use metric for time, and it probably never bothered you once before now. What an insane, non-logical unit of measure time is.
Yes, metric let's us convert millimeters to kilometers, or helps us determine how many calories it take increase 1 cubic centimeter of water by 10 degrees kelvin. It helps with those things because the units are arbitrarily defined to make the math easier, not to make the measurement easier. But that's it, there's no additional sanity, no additional logic. It's easier to convert between units via math, because it was designed to be easier to convert between units via math. There are no additional benefits to the metric system.
Every imperial unit of measure can be estimated whilst naked (but preferably clothed).
so I can ask a 9 yr old child to walk out naked to the streets to measure a thing in their foot and:
- I'll get the exact same answer as if I send an adult priest naked to the street to measure the same thing in their foot
- I'll not get the priest to rape the kid
?
A foot is a foot. Fantastic. Glad to know everyone has the same sized feet.
And the same length on their legs so we all pace the same distance.
I would say good troll, but it just seems too long to be ironic.
There aren't many instances in normal life where accuracy and precision are that important. Modern humans can measure distances with lasers and satellite coordinates. You probably own a tape measure and at least one type of scale. But unless you're building something, baking something, or selling something by weight, estimates are almost as good as knowing something precisely.
We see the same in countries that us metric. Most people estimate how many meters, kgs, or liters things are because taking the time to accurately measure isn't necessary. Maybe your phone tracks your daily jog, but that's only going to be accurate to within a few meters, and most people would round off to the nearest significant digit anyway.
Yes. People estimate things. Because we don't carry around a scale in our pockets. What does that have to do with anything?
The point of metric system is that things should be scaleable. And relatable. Between different types of measurements, such as weight and volume.
Yes, that's the point. The imperial system has been succesful and remains popular because people do carry around (rough) scales with us most of the time, and because the advantage of being accurate and scalable really isn't that useful in day to day living. Having a single unit of measure for the length of a aheet of paper and the distance to the nearest city isn't a significant advantage for most people in most applications. I don't need to know how many inches are in a mile, because the conversion usually isn't necessary. The point of the metric system you've described has no advantage in most normal use cases, and we use it when it does have an advantage.
What do you mean “remain popular”? The imperial system has roughly 500 million users. While metric has over 7 billion.
And even in the countries where imperial is used, the scientific community in them still use metric.
How can you even attempt to talk about the advantage of normal use, when you don't even know how to use them?
Metric is a tool. Just because you don't know how to use the tool, doesn't mean it's not advantageous.
Ofc conversions in imperial isn't necessary, it's gibberish. No normal person will be able to relate the two.
Your argument boils down to you telling us writing is pointless because no one knows how to read.
Ofc they can't read when there's nothing to read.
How can you even attempt to talk about the advantage of normal use, when you don’t even know how to use them?
Metric is a tool. Just because you don’t know how to use the tool, doesn’t mean it’s not advantageous.
Ofc conversions in imperial isn’t necessary, it’s gibberish. No normal person will be able to relate the two.
Are you under the impression that Americans don't know how to use the metric system? We learn to use it in elementary school. We regularly go between the two and relate them to each other.
Your comment is unnecessarily arrogant based on complete ignorance.
There aren’t many instances in normal life where accuracy and precision are that important [...] unless you’re building something, baking something, or selling something by weight
Yeah, because building, baking, or selling something by weight are totally not important and absolutely common "instances in normal life" 🤡
Good fucking grief...
Correct, the vast majority of humans won't build, bake, or sell anything that requires scalable units of measure. A cup of milk doesn't need to be precisely 237 mL of milk, nor would most people need to scale their recipe to feed 1,000. If you're building a shed, dimensional lumber is plenty precise, and it doesn't require converting the height of a ceiling into miles.
Jesus wept 🤦♀️
You do understand that precision has absolutely NOTHING, at all, to do with the units you’re using? Right?
And yes, when you’re baking, you need precision. Try making consistently good bread just by rule of thumb, I’ll wait for your results.
BTW, measuring things by weight is not just more precise by far, most of the time it’s also easier and faster.
But hey, be my guest trying to gauge that cup on your beaker that’s 10% off.
And yes, if your butcher sells you meat, you would like to pay what you bought, and not 5% more.
And it doesn’t matter if that’s g, lbs, oompah loompahs or whatever. 5% of something is 5%.
FFS is this a knuckle-dragging contest here?
precision has absolutely NOTHING, at all, to do with the units you’re using
1 degree Fahrenheit contains the same amount of heat as 1.8 degrees Celsius. The base unit provides more definition. If you're limited to just whole numbers, Fahrenheit will give you more precise information about heat.
Of course, decimals exist, so it really isn't a big deal.
Oh look, another knuckle-dragger, swell!
Of course, decimals exist, so it really isn't a big deal.
It’s not a big deal, it’s patently false. Unless you deal with some fundamental limit, like the Planck constant, you can split any unit as much as you like.
But at least you admit you just make up baseless „arguments“ simply in order to be right.
You know what that makes you? A fucking troll.
Get lost. Blocked.
Christ, who hurt you?
For someone so belligerent about something so inconsequential, you're also entirely wrong about almost everything. Ice your britches.
You do understand that precision has absolutely NOTHING, at all, to do with the units you’re using? Right?
Baldercrap. One of the primary advantages of the metric system is that it can scale down for additional precision as necessary. Metric easily scales infinitely in both directions, so you only need one unit of measure for each type of measurement. Imperial units don't easily scale, so the level of precision is tightly bound to the unit you select. You're not going to get the same precision from miles that I will from inches. So that was a stupid thing to say angrily.
And yes, when you’re baking, you need precision. Try making consistently good bread just by rule of thumb, I’ll wait for your results.
Yeah, that's why I brought up baking as an example. But the cool thing about baking is that recipes exist in both metric and imperial units. I can measure my flour in ounces if I want, and take a teaspoon of salt, half a cup of milk, one large egg, and there's never any reason to convert between those units because who cares? I'm not making dough for 1,000 loaves, nor would I ever need to figure one one-thousanth of a loaf, so metric doesn't provide any advantages for the typical home baker.
BTW, measuring things by weight is not just more precise by far, most of the time it’s also easier and faster.
With a digital scale, sure. I have one and it's great. I highly recommend it especially for baking. But digital scales weren't always widely available or inexpensive, and most people don't own one. Nearly everyone who uses a kitchen to cook will have access to measuring scoops. And not for nothing, but my grandma never measured anything and was an excellent baker. It took years of trial and error but she could adjust her recipes to a humid day to make perfect baked goods.
And yes, if your butcher sells you meat, you would like to pay what you bought, and not 5% more.
And it doesn’t matter if that’s g, lbs, oompah loompahs or whatever. 5% of something is 5%.
That's why butchers use scales. Grocery stores also use scales for produce and deli produces like cheese. Would it surprise you to learn that the vast majority of humans in America are not butchers or grocers? Their math might be easier with metric, especially when ordering bulk quantities, but for the typical customer, they want an 8 oz steak and a half pound of cheese. So why don't butchers and grocers use metric?
Because their customers don't use metric, and there are more customers than butchers or grocers. The conversion between units of measure, the entire reason metric exists, just isn't a daily consideration. It makes no difference if the steak and the cheese weigh the same, or if you can scale up and down.
Also, another tangential point, most of the math today is handled by computers. Figuring the unit price of a side of beef or a pallet of cheese isn't something people need to do in their head anymore. The inventory database will effortlessly convert between pounds and ounces and stones and tons. It can even convert everything to metric if you like.
FFS is this a knuckle-dragging contest here?
Gosh, you're rude. Maybe spend less time attacking me personally and try to think of a valid argument. Or better yet, just go back and actually comprehend what I wrote, and maybe you'll understand that our positions aren't really that far apart.
Yeah, I’m not reading your wall of text on „something so inconsequential“, lol. Clown.
You can take any unit and break it down or scale it as much as you like. You can have a milli-inch if you want do, it’s 1/1000th of an inch.
Now get lost.
Ok. Hope your day is as pleasant as you are.
A truly logic system would be entirely designed around a base-12 number system. But we were born with an imperfect set of 10 fingers and that doomed us.
Those aliens have 6 fingers. It's an absolutely ironic twist that their discussion on measuring systems is super illogical for them, and yet logical is the verbiage they use.
Care to elaborate on how base 12 would be better than base 10 in this case?
Basically it's because 12 is more divisible than 10. Factors of 10 are 1,2,5 and 10. 12 has 1,2,3,4,6 and 12. This gives more flexibility when discussing numbers. Our time is technically using base 12, which is why we can say quarter past 4 and it means a traditional whole number. That's the argument I've heard anyway
I'll just leave this here: https://youtu.be/iJymKowx8cY
TLDW: metric is better because all the different kinds of units were designed to work together.
Where as imperial units developed organically, within specific trades/use cases. They're not all supposed to work together.
I use imperial because that's what I was raised with, but I recognize metric is better in many ways. My only gripe with metric is the gap in units between Centimeters and Meters. A foot is convenient size for most things.
When I find a wood working video on YouTube from the states it blows my mind how anyone can not just adopt metric “This is 5” 4/57 and we need to cut it to 5” 5/45 and a half” bzzzzzzz.
I may be biased, but I think it kinda makes sense. All the fractions are really just powers of two:
One half
One quarter
One eighth
One sixteenth
One thirtysecond
etc.
Oh yeah, totally makes more sense to say "it's 3/64ths of an inch" than "it's 2 millimeters." Completely reasonable.
So reasonable, in fact, that in most manufacturing that still uses imperial measurements they long ago abandoned fractions and moved to decimal inches.
Which leads to unholy abominations such as the wood shop sending over "cut off 3/64ths" and the metal shop cutting off 0.046875".
Technically the metric system is "the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce" as per the Metric Conversion Act of 1975.
You're just also allowed to use lbs and feet and stuff and most people do.
The versions of imperial measurements the US uses are even defined in terms of metric units, so they're less a completely separate measurement system these days and more just a weird facade on top of metric, even.
And in the sciences and drug dealing and the military, we use metric exclusively.
But for some idiotic reason, construction engineers often use imperial units and I have no idea why. Like buildings are built in pounds and feet and stuff, with half inch bolts and 2x4 (ish) lumber and half inch plywood. It’s idiotic.
I don't generally defend imperial, but feet and inches are actually really useful in construction. Base 12 is easily divisible by 2, 4, and 3. You often need to divide architectural elements in thirds.
As a former structural engineer who lived on a Jobber 5 all day, that's still pretty niche overall. Easier because it's what your used to maybe, but outweighed by situations where it's not. Try doing trig with fractions and then tell me imperial is better.
Trig is literally the math where you start dividing a circle in fractions and doing the math in base 360.
What the hell are you talking about?
I'm talking about trig using feet and inches. You know, rise, run, slope... Have you ever used trig outside of school? I don't understand what you're confused about.
right now i use it for waves and reflections. that's all fractions and degrees. before it was machining and tbh for me that was faster to go to the book for the answers than calculate everything out.
truly trigonometry is a land of contrasts.
That might be somewhat useful if it was consistently applied, which it is not.
And it’s maybe useful for fractions, but how many feet are in a mile again? 5280? A square yard is what now… 1296 square inches?! Who the fuck is supposed to memorize all that?
What’s a 1/4 square yard in square inches?
That’s not easy, that’s putting the mental into mental arithmetic.
Again people making me defend imperial, I think metric is better.
I see this argument all the time, converting between these units is hard cause the numbers are weird. You have to stop thinking about imperial as a system, it's not. No one should convert miles to feet, they are not intended to measure on the same scale.
None of the conversions are easy because imperial is just a random collection of units that were being used to measure different things.
Yeah, no one should be able to make a quick sanity check for things that span multiple powers.
-
"Hey Bob, we have 5000 of those 78 ft rails, that enough for the 100 mile railroad?"
-
"What do I look like, a fucking calculator?"
vs
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"Hallo Heinz, how mäny hecto-liter do ve kneed für 1000 0.5l bottles of Bier?"
-
"20, boss."
The amount of people going completely out of their way to die on their little cubic ft hill actually defending they're incapable of easily and consistenly calculating units is just utterly ridiculous. "Nobody should be doing this!!!1!"
No, wait, the people in here telling people that "dozenal" is superior, but not realizing they're not using a "dozenal" system at all, they're just counting to twelve in decimal. Those are also making me question whether humans actually went to the moon...
Keep putting those words in my mouth. I'm not dieing on any hill, just trying to provide some context about why imperial is so weird. I still think metric is better.
You seem really upset about something that really doesn't matter that much, are you okay?
Did I mention you specifically when I said „the amount of people…“? See.
And if it doesn’t matter much to you, why do you keep commenting? Nobody’s „making“ you defend anything. Are you okay?
You were replying to me...
I'm just replying to people who respond. I had seen your argument about imperial measurements a lot and since that's really not an intended use case, if anything about imperial can really be called intended, I responded.
I'm doing fine thanks for asking. If my responses are agitating you I can stop. I hope you have a great life!
Yeah, I’m just replying to people who respond. Look, I’m not the one having issues here, you are the one who keeps responding to me. Just stay out of my inbox if I’m agitating you.
Glad you aren't having issues. No agitation here. Have a great weekend!
🤡
Funny clown emoji. Hope you enjoy your day!