this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2024
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submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
 

A quick TLDR of the comment section:

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

This comment section is a shitshow and OP admits to being a troll. Locking this thread.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I feel like society kind of does that for them? Not 100%, but most women's magazine have a "how to please your man" section. Grooming for women is usually around looking young and pretty and feminine to men, hiding things or pushing/squeezing things for the best shape. While men's story tend to be about self discovery, women's media (until recently) was not telling women same message. Media for awhile was heavily focused on women being content as home makers. You gotta learn how to look to get a man after all and then have to do the house making to keep them. Keep yourself young and pretty so he doesn't get a new model! You don't like giving head? Or having men cum on your face? Oh, sorry, 90% of sexual media is geared towards men and their desires, and if you wanna keep him, you need to perform. Hell, some men don't even think women can get pleasure from sex. Advertisements were geared towards being a "Good wife," not a happy woman (unless you're chuffed at being a wife). We have recent comics/memes about this. We laugh at them ("I was a scientist" VS "I raised 5 (all male) scientists"), but that's in certain circles, these were not created to be jokes. There's not as much as the reverse baked into society. Men didn't have to learn how to treat a woman for, like, the bulk of our history. I think there's a lot of focus on men attracting women (and extreme pressure on them to be the main providers), but not necessarily how to treat them. Women tend to do that with sons because, until fairly recently, no one gave a shit if you beat your family every night, rape within marriage was perfectly legal. Women couldn't get a bank account without a man's permission. In some countries women can't leave the house without a man period. Society was teaching men that women were property, and it was usually only the mom in the man's life that could say, "Hey kiddo, when you get a wife please don't beat her." if she wasn't the kind of woman to say you should beat her.

This is not to say men don't also suffer. Toxic masculinity has made a place where men have power, but lack the freedom to be vulnerable. Their mental health isn't taken seriously because "men don't cry." Men don't get "hurt," men don't get sad, lonely unless you're "weak." Don't cry, because you'll be told to "get a tampon." Women who drank the kool-aid uphold this as well. Even toxic spaces that some men make for themselves (manosphere) are incredibly harmful to the men they say they're there to uplift. All they focus on is how to get women, how to "catch one" with the bait usually a man's wealth, or apperence. They don't talk about how to find a loving partner, how men can look out for abuse, how men can protect themselves. Those men say women have until 25, they're the gate keepers of "sex." They make it seem like men and women are diametrically opposed ~~foes~~ . I think there's a huge lack in actual helpful male focused media. Like, I say the manosphere is awful, but I don't readily know another space that could help men with their issues in less toxic ways. How many men have heard "just be yourself" or "work out" to solve their problems? When that's all you hear, someone telling you something is better than nothing.

TL;DR: I think men have the inverse problem. Women tend to have to be their own advocate for their treatment, but get the freedom to be cared for, heard, and have their mental health taken seriously. Men have the "power," but not the freedom of expression, but a lot of that is the result of a society they created. It's not so much "fathers need to teach their daughters how to treat men" (because I don't think men are taught to even let women know that they have feelings, let alone telling their daughters), it's that we need to allow men to be vulnerable and have people be supportive of them. We all teased the men for their alpha boot camps. Like women's retreats aren't weird either? I specifically remember a video of a man going "I am a man" while pushing some barrier and then crying in the man's arms. He was ridiculed (and I was laughing too, I'm not innocent). Why? Why was that funny. He didn't fall or do something dumb. He went to a program to find himself in some way, broke through a little, and was punished for it. Walz's son is currently being hsrrased for crying by both men and women. What man wants to "feel" in that environment?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Well said and very balanced

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Your reply is really well thought out, and the crux of why I posted this meme in the first place (other than that I am a shitlord).

There are A. LOT. of shitty men out there. Tons. I hold a lot of disdain for my own sex, because the majority of them are caught up in the toxic masculinity paradigm and don't even know it, or worse, refuse to acknowledge that it is indeed toxic. Even the male-orientated support communities often twist into some Jordan Petersen-esque Dutch oven. We have a lot of figuring out to do if we want to be healthy humans, and pave the way for future men to be healthy too. We need to be vulnerable with other men, and actually talk about thing bothering us. We need to build friendships that are built on more than just one shared hobby. The list goes on and on, and we have our work cut out for us

I agree with you, in that women don't need to know how to treat men, because, like you say, it's rammed down their fucking throats every time they turn around. What women need it to see the value in themselves, and stand up for it. Hit the bricks if he's a twatwaffle. Men should do the same.

Finally, should you find yourself in a relationship, you need to take a hard look at your baseline assumptions. For instance, your partner is not there to make your life better, but rather compliment the already good life you supposedly have going on. They aren't responsible for your emotional wellbeing. A good partner will certainly care about this and want to foster this, but it is not into them for you to be happy in the relationship.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

I actually went searching for something positive. So far I've found F.D Signifier (This one and this seem promising. Though he has quite a few). Like, that's just not enough.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago

Unless I'm supposed to know the first guy for something, this is either nonsensical or fucking stupid in some way i haven't thought of yet.

[–] [email protected] 53 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

I mean it is weird that society expects men to treat women a certain, positive way (which I'm on board with) while basically saying woman can treat men however they want tbh. Men can be victims too but nobody gives a fuck. This response is absolute garbage.

Bottom line: men and woman need to treat each other with respect and dignity.

Edit: nice kool aid man meme bro. Stay mad.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The entire way our society is structured is telling women how to treat men. For too long it told men they can treat women however they want which is why boys need to be taught while girls can learn it from literally everywhere around them. If anything girls should be taught to not let men treat them however they want.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago

For too long it told men they can treat women however they want

This is demonstrably false, as we have certain narratives that are literally millennia old (latin literature) about courtship, romantic gestures, protection and all the other stuff usually associated with how men should treat women. Usually this is some form of protection/care for a lower/weaker being, but it is absolutely a way society has been telling men how to tell women for centuries.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Bingo.

The point of the meme is that the guy is butthurt that from his perspective, no one has taught women how to treat men, yet he fails to realize we live in a society where the messaging for women is everywhere.

Girls and women most definitely need to be taught not to tolerate shitty behavior which is much more prevalent to them because men in our male-orientated society aren't taught how to treat people. go out there. Earn. Be a good provider. Your value is only as much as what you produce. You need to have big shiny things to showcase your value. whispers society Don't worry about your emotional development, that's not important. A woman will straighten that out for you later

The guy above called me angry. I'm not really. Just disappointed that men are just finally starting to clue in that a lot of the media out and society's views on men do not have male best interests at heart.

We can do better. I'm angry that we aren't, and that the change is so painfully slow.

I'm an angry optimist.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I dunno. I think the messaging is everywhere for how to attract men, but I don't see too much content about how to treat men either. Certainly historically that was baked into the message, pun not intended, but these days I feel like the message is "you are the table" (so long as you are attractive enough to get a date) which is in part reinforced by the validation from the dating apps women get.

My wife of 19 years still says "what are you getting me for my anniversary" and I have to remind her that it's our anniversary. Until recently my happiness hasn't really occurred to her that is something she should consider. It's all about her challenges and how I can help her, and what she wants to do, or what she wants to watch on tv. I literally am not given a second thought and told I'm wrong until she gets her way.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Which society are you describing here? I'd like to move there

[–] [email protected] 35 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)
[–] [email protected] -3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Oh, no it is. I'm an agent of chaos.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Whatever you have to tell yourself.

[–] [email protected] 61 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

As a father to two girls: When and if it comes to them dating boys (or girls for that matter), yes I'm going to give them some pointers. Like:
Ask them what they want! Everyone's different.
Be nice to them and expect them to be nice to you.
Talk to them and expect them to talk to you (at least a little bit; everyone's different).
If you love them, let them know you do.

(And if they don't reciprocate, you can always come back home and regroup.)

(edited for formatting)

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