this post was submitted on 21 Dec 2023
5 points (100.0% liked)

People Twitter

4972 readers
807 users here now

People tweeting stuff. We allow tweets from anyone.

RULES:

  1. Mark NSFW content.
  2. No doxxing people.
  3. Must be a tweet or similar
  4. No bullying.
  5. Be excellent to each other.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
[email protected]
[email protected]
5
4th person pronoun? (startrek.website)
submitted 9 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
23 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 
top 23 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

First person: Talking about oneself. I, me. Second person: talking about the listener. you, your. Third person: talking about someone who is not the speaker or listener. He/she/it/they Fourth person: Talking about total bullshit.

In this context, "Chat" is second-person plural, used by streamers to address the portion of their audience able to respond in the text chat that always accompanies these things. It does contrast with how a radio personality might address "listeners" because radio listeners don't usually have a method to respond in real time, so it's usually a rhetorical question; a streamer addressing the chat is asking for a response.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

i saw someone argue for chat being a 4th person pronoun because it breaks the 4th wall usually seen in mass broadcast media, there's still a degree of interaction that isn't there on live TV, so "chat is this real" prompts a direct response from a unified mass of people, there's a conversation happening through the 4th wall basically

the other person explained it better lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

Eh, I don't think that holds up.

I might buy the 4th person as "someone outside your continuum or reality," but I've yet to see a language construct specifically for that. Fictional characters invariably use second or third person to refer to the audience outside their world.

Streamers talking with their chat audience aren't fictional or otherworldly though. I don't see a linguistic difference between a streamer asking the chat what game he should play next, to Bob Saget saying "Home viewers, if you have a funny home video, send the tape to the address on your screen for a chance at appearing on our show!" It's a communique addressing a large scattered audience through audio/video telephony soliciting a reply. The only real difference is round-trip latency.

While I think the phenomenon of live streaming and their audiences is interesting and presents a fairly new experience, I don't know if it's "we're inventing new pronoun tenses over here."

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

Crystal clear, thanks chat.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

It's just a pronoun to address the Collective

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

it's definitely 2nd person collective in its original usage and outside of its original usage it's not a pronoun because it doesn't replace a noun.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

It’s not even a pronoun in this context, it’s just a noun.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Is it really that different than saying "Audience"? Or radio shows referring to "listeners"? Etc.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

Seems like the same thing to me. I think the person saying it's the first of its kind is wrong, but it would still be equally bizarre if people were addressing their "listeners" in normal conversation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I usually say "smash that like button" but ill throw in "chat" in the future to stay relevant with these kids.

Smash that like button if you agree with me chat

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Why isn't that just 2nd person plural, like "y'all"?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It speaks to a person that isn't physically present and just an observer. "You" typically addresses someone directly, but can be used to break the 4th wall and talk to observers. "Chat" is exclusively for breaking the 4th wall.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Nah, "chat" is talking to a specific, present group of people, and is used in lieu of writing a text chat. It's not like a film actor speaking to the audience, who has no way of responding. Even so, any terms used in breaking the fourth wall would still be second person, ability to respond and presence aren't a requirement here (e.g. you'd use "you" in letters, and the reader is absolutely not present).

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

There are languages with a 4th person pronoun. The 3rd person is kind of the main character and the 4th someone else. That helps to disambiguate sentences like "The criminal shot the cop and drove away on his (own or the cop's) bike".

Or the "gay fanfiction problem": "He looked at him and lay his hands on his lap". Is it a happy ending or a sad one? That's one theory why gender in pronouns is so resilient: more often than not, the gendered pronoun can disambiguate which person is talked about. It doesn't always work, a 3rd/4rd person distinction is superior.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Fourth pronoun was doing well, until the fifth person enters the scene.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

missed opportunity to say enters the chat

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

You can have an alternate third person pronoun I suppose in order to distinguish two third person individuals, but that doesn't mean there's a fourth person pronoun. The general definition is:

  • first person - the speaker
  • second person - the audience, whether present or not present
  • third person - someone or something other than the audience

So things like "chat" and "breaking the fourth wall" are second person pronouns. There is no fourth person pronoun, because anything other than first and second is covered under third person.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Isn't 'chat' essentially treated as a name, except that it refers to a group of people instead of an individual?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

I think you're right, and the pronoun for it would be the second person plural (you in English).

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I've looked it up and the official name is "obviative" and it is sometimes referred to as the "fourth person".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

That still sounds like a special type of third person, though I guess that's just disagreeing about terminology.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

First person = someone describing their own point of view (ex: I, me)

Second person = someone being addressed (ex: you, y'all)

Third person = someone talking about someone else (ex: they, them)

Fourth person = the point of view of a collective group (ex: we, us)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

I can't tell if you're making a joke or not, but when I learned it "we" was first person plural. Likewise "y'all" was second person plural, etc.