this post was submitted on 29 Jun 2024
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submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
 

Hello, making this post to get some honest, and technical opinions about GrapheneOS. Please do not be bother by this question. No drama here pls πŸ™. I've heard that there is some of the google code into the "sandbox" feature. Say your opinion below! πŸ‘‡πŸ‘‡

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[–] [email protected] -4 points 4 months ago

Ask me when the NSA knocks at your door, what I think about it? I think it's a big honeypot.

Think about it, if you were the NSA or the CIA would you push a privacy oriented OS? Honeypot vibes get stronger

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Louis Rossman got threatened by the GrapheneOS dev

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

And is GrapheneOS Dev threatened by Louis Rossman?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago

No the dev is very sensitive to criticism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4To-F6W1NT0

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago (3 children)

There's also CalyxOS, low drama and very reliable. Https://www.calyxos.org

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Calyx is unfortunately pretty slow to release security patches, uses privileged apps with root access like microG and the F-Droid privileged extension by default and doesn't really provide any unique features. All of the privacy features of Calyx are either already present or can be easily replicated in a better form on GrapheneOS. Take Datura Firewall, it's yet another privileged app with root access which adds unnecessary attack surface, and is less secure than the Graphene equivalent. GrapheneOS implements a network permission toggle, which is embedded in Android's native permission manager and uses the INTERNET permission to restrict network access. It disables both direct and indirect network access, including the local device network (localhost). GrapheneOS also has a bunch of unique security features, that can't be found on any other Android ROM, like for example a hardened memory allocator, hardened kernel, secure app spawning, improved SELInux policies, Duress PIN/Password, driver-level USB-C control, Storage Scopes, Contact Scopes and soon App Communication Scopes. GrapheneOS also includes Sandboxed Google Play services, a better GMS implementation than microG, which doesn't require root and has better app compatibility.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

All your points are true, yet still depend on Google in sandboxed form. That negates everything else for me, who wants a reasonably secure device that works out of the box and also respects my privacy.

If a nation-state wants into my phone, it's delusional to believe even graphene can hold them off, you need real opsec for that, and unfortunately all I've seen thus far from graphene guys is cosplaying that the NSA wants your porn selfies.

Graphene and micro g? Cool. Sandboxed Google? Nope.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

All your points are true, yet still depend on Google in sandboxed form. That negates everything else for me, who wants a reasonably secure device that works out of the box and also respects my privacy.

Graphene doesn't "depend" on Sandboxed Play services. In fact, it's not installed by default, and it is totally optional. Also, Sandboxed Play services doesn't make your device less secure in any way, it can be installed as a normal user app, you can fully control access to sensitive parts of your device like the microphone, camera, location, etc. through the Android permission manager, and Play services don't have any special permissions, since it's not installed as a system app. As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong) you can't remove microG on Calyx, since it's installed as a system app and even granted root privileges. microG is a cheap, hacked together workaround, which requires root to function correctly. This greatly expanded attack surface makes it inherently insecure. microG also requires proprietary Google code to be run, in order to work (most of microG is open source, but it still uses some Google blobs). As far as I'm aware, this Google code is not sandboxed, and simply executed as a child process of microG (which runs as root), meaning that this Google blob is also run as root. This makes microG much more insecure than Sandboxed Google Play services, and it potentially gives Google much greater access to your device compared to the sandboxed approach.

If a nation-state wants into my phone, it’s delusional to believe even graphene can hold them off

The GrapheneOS team never claims that their OS is "NSA-proof", but they actually look at which parts of the OS are commonly exploited by (nation-state) hackers, and massively improve them. As you can see in this spreadsheet, created by Google's Project Zero, most vulnerabilities in Android come from memory corruption. That's why GrapheneOS's biggest and most important feature is their custom hardened memory allocator. It protects against most memory-related exploits, and is even stronger when used on a device with hardware memory tagging, which is the reason why GrapheneOS currently only supports Google Pixel devices.
Another significant security feature is secure app spawning. Creating new processes via exec (instead of using the traditional Zygote model on Android) randomizes the initial memory layout, which also helps to defend against memory-related vulnerabilities. The aspects I just mentioned are important protections about malware/remote code execution.

GrapheneOS also protects your device against physical attacks, e.g. by implementing a driver-based control mechanism for the USB-C port, making it impossible to connect to the device while it's locked. This protects against forensic data extraction, e.g. using Cellebrite or XRY hardware.

Graphene even has a feature that protects you, when you are forced to give up your password. The Duress feature let's you set a second PIN/password, which will cause the device to entirely wipe all the encryption keys, which are used for unlocking the device, from the secure element. This process is irreversible, can't be interrupted and happens instantaneously, making the data impossible to recover.

No one claims that GrapheneOS is 100% secure and will absolutely protect you against NSA hackers, but it is by far the best and most secure mobile OS that's currently out there. It is easy to use for everyone, and secure enough to be used by high-profile targets like Edward Snowden.

you need real opsec for that

Good OPSEC includes a secure operating system. Calyx is not security focused whatsoever, it rolls back standard AOSP security features, significantly increases attack surface, and doesn't release security patches regularly.

Happy cake day btw!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

Sorry, "google blobs"? A lot of work went into MicroG, and I think it's a shame that you'd minimize so much good work to reimplement the lynchpin of Google's control on your devices.

At this point I'll presume you're just misinformed, as no proprietary google code operates within microG unless you decide to run with device attestation, and there it's running as a sandboxed service. At any other time, you are able to run open source code which spoofs your device details to Google, and spoofs google to all these other closed source apps in a reliable and readable, much smaller codebase.

Honestly, the irony of running blobs, when one is completely closed source vs the other which is fully open. Hahaha.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Can it run problem bank apps? I need a bank auth app for work as the bank stopped fobs and it just would not run on LineageOS. It refused to run because "the phone is insecure". I tried Magisk hiding stuff and MicroG, and a number of way of tricking methods. That's why I ended up on GrapheneOS, as a compromise without feeling too compromised. Everything seams to think it's on a normal Android phone, but I've sandboxed the Google tentacles. But it would be better if mandating OS wasn't allowed. If I want to run a "insecure" phone, that's my "problem".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago

Agreed, it shouldn't be their problem. But, I am using applications just fine that are sensitive to root, even device attestation, but I don't recommend attestation just out of principle.

Even pokemon go seem to run ok with just micro g and aurora.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

@RubberElectrons @privacy @foremanguy92_
I've been using CalyxOS for a year now and I like it so much. I also tried GrapheneOS but I consider that sandboxed apps are harder to manage than microG in Calyx. I chose simplicity.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I've been using GrapheneOS for over a year. I cannot complain about it, it works as advertised and it does it the best way possible. However, here's the list of things I find annoying/missing. Keep in mind, this is a subjective list.

  • some (quite a lot of for me) apps require Google Play Framework (or whatever the name is) to work properly
  • Aurora store tends to be unavailable randomly, which makes installation/updates difficult sometimes
  • some features are wonky, e.g. GrapheneOS has no issues with disabling wifi when leaving my home but I was never able to enable wifi when I'm back home.
  • default apps work ok-ish but it's far from good old iOS/Android experience
  • Android Auto experience was a shitshow for me
[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago

I have been using GrapheneOS on a Pixel 7 Pro for 3 months now. I am BLOWN AWAY at how good it is. I have 3 user profiles. Main profile has no google services at all, and 95% of my apps are running there. Then I have a second user I can switch to that has sandboxed google services and my banking apps on it. I then have a third user that also has sandboxed google services running where I can install any random app that demands google services. (I have only 1 app on that user) . So 99.9% of the time my phone is running with no google services at all. (Side note: without even the sandboxed google services installed, apps need to be left open in the app switcher in order to receive notifications. If you swipe all your apps away, then you won't receive notifications. This is not a problem for me, as I just keep my messaging apps open in the app switcher. But if it is a problem for you, you would need to run the sandboxed google services).

I see GrapheneOS as a way of removing 99% of all the tracking, spyware and things that I dont like, while still having the convenience of having all the apps and features that are available on a regular smartphone.

There is a learning curve, and many settings to learn and customize. But definitely worth it.

To get a Pixel, instead of paying Β£900 for a new pixel 8 pro, I paid Β£300 for a second hand Pixel 7 Pro on eBay that was in perfect condition. So for Β£300 I now have a privacy phone and an AMAZING camera, which was very important for me the camera.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago

Not much to comment on the technical side, but quite a bit of things get upstreamed or reported from GrapheneOS. I believe they really know what they're doing. You can ignore the rest if you don't care for the general opinion.

Yes, there's probably Google code in the sandbox feature, it's basically the stock Android userland app sandbox. The magic is the compatibility layer that allows Google apps to run as regular userland apps.

...I bought a Pixel 7a, just so I could try GrapheneOS.

Installed it straight after unboxing, with Play services. Ended up using it pretty much like any Android phone. Installation is simple using the web installer. On recent versions, even Android Auto works, so the only thing you're really giving up is NFC payments. Some banking apps may don't work, but I'm lucky (or rather not unlucky) that the ones I use do. I believe those rare apps are somewhat lazily developed, and rely / trust on Google to do security for them.

Some months later, I went back to the stock ROM, mostly for comparison. Stock Pixel OS has a lot of appealing features, but most of those are just "nice to have" things. Stayed on stock for a few months, but the plethora of obscure Google "privacy settings" put me back to GrapheneOS, and finally off Google. Reverting to stock was also simple, just as easy as flashing GrapheneOS.

Now I don't have Play services at all anymore, and have cleared most Google services (gmail, photos, drive...) so at least not much new data will go there. I do use Google Camera, and have Photos installed since I think the post-processing happens in Photos. Both have network permission denied, which is one of the nicest added features of GrapheneOS. The stock GOS camera is OK, but that's one thing I think Google does better, though this is a subjective thing.

The only thing I kind of miss is Google's find my phone stuff. Even though it's quite invasive, I have needed it once and it resulted in me getting a lost phone back. A simple solution is not to lose your phone.

Apart from the per-app network permission, another really nice feature in GrapheneOS are the settings to toggle WiFi and Bluetooth off automatically. Why these are not in any "official" ROM tells a tall tale about how much they care about your privacy. The auto reboot if not unlocked in a while also brings some assurance regarding losing your phone, at least the storage will automatically back in encrypted unlocked state.

Vanadium might be the best browser I know for Android. Pretty much Chrome without all the things that make Chrome one of the worst browsers. Vanadium's point is security, privacy (e.g. adblockers) is not the main focus. I'm not sure if there actually even is adblock features bundled nowadays.

If you want all the nice modern bells and whistles, stay on some other OS. If the benefits above appeal to you, there's really not much you give up in the end with GrapheneOS. It requires a bit more technical mindset, but not really even technical know-how. I haven't noticed bugs or broken stuff anywhere, with or without Play services. Android Auto (requires Play services) gets stuck sometimes, but that may also be my low-tier car too.

The "sandboxed" Google Play refers to the apps running as user installed apps vs the system-wide root-access-to-everything apps they are on stock. The same limitations you can apply to any other app you install apply to GSF apps too. So even if you install Play services, you are severely limiting the scope of data Google gets from you. It's a solid middle ground between full degoogling and stock OS.

I'm not even an Android app developer, and will gladly admit technical mistakes. If you want something negative, the vocal minority of GOS users is really vocal and really full of themselves.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I don't trust the google kernel when it comes to privacy or security. You think with how many people use Android and with how bad actors Google are they wouldn't put a backdoor somewhere?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

its open source and well audited, so no I don't think they have it backdoored. they get all the info they want from people using google play services at a privileged level, running chrome, and using their other dozen services that come bundled with stock android

[–] [email protected] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Unless you want to tell me that the Android kernel is the first OS kernel without bugs, it takes at the very least one bug to be left intentionally unfixed and shared with the feds to introduce a backdoor. I wouldn't consider it infeasible with how large the android kernel is, and how high a barrier of entry kernel dev is. If the bug is found, just move to the next one. Normally I wouldn't be so paranoid, but this is Google we're dealing with, on one of, if not the most popular kernels on the planet.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago
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